No One could have predicted Iraq didn't have WMD...

C

Cypress

Well-known member
Money quote:

German intelligence agents warned the US in a letter that there was no way to verify Mr Alwan's claims....However, his information was used in a speech by then Secretary of State Colin Powell at the UN to back military action in Iraq....

"We know for a FACT saddam has WMD" - Bush Adminstration

"But, the whole WORLD thought he had WMD!" - Dixie
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A couple points. Before any Bush voter beats the drums for war with Iran, please keep a skeptical mind about what defectors and "informants" tell you. I pointed out in 2002 that INC and some iraqi defectors may have had a vested interest in leading the US to believe Saddam had WMD...and I was subsequently roundly laughed off and dismissed by Bush fans.

Second, a tangential point: this is the type of information that may lead you to make bad decisions when you torture people. Any Bush fan that waterboards detainees, is likely to be told by the torture victim whatever it is she/he thinks you want to hear. In short, information from torture is generally unreliable.

Third, as I understand it, many of the detainees in Gitmo or in CIA secret prisons were sold to the CIA for money, or possibly "outed" by relatives or neighbors; i.e., possibly by people who had a vested interest in seeing a rival or neighbor "dissapear". Keep in mind, the lowest circles of hell may be reserved for Bush fans who torture innocent people.

Iraq war source's name revealed

Chemical weapons rockets unilaterally destroyed by Iraq after the first Gulf War

The US cited Mr Alwan's bio-weapon claims in its war argument.

A US TV network has revealed the name of "Curveball" - an Iraqi man whose information was central to the US government's argument to invade Iraq.

The CBS show 60 Minutes identifies him as Iraqi defector Rafid Ahmed Alwan.

The programme says he arrived in a German refugee centre in 1999 where he lied to win asylum and was not the chemical expert he said he was.

His claims of mobile bio-weapons labs in Saddam Hussein's Iraq were backed until well after the 2003 invasion.

'Playing the system'

The CBS 60 Minutes programme airs on Sunday but material released on its web site says Curveball was "not only a liar, but also a thief and a poor student instead of the chemical engineering whiz he claimed to be".


It was a guy trying to get his green card essentially, in Germany, and playing the system for what it was worth
Tyler Drumheller, former CIA official quoted by CBS

It also says it assumes Mr Alwan is now living in Germany under a different name.

The programme says he claimed to be a star chemical engineer at a plant that made mobile biological weapons in Djerf al-Nadaf.

However, its investigation showed he received only low marks in chemical engineering at university and was the subject of an arrest warrant for alleged theft from a TV production company he worked for in Baghdad.

The programme also includes footage of his wedding in 1993 in the Iraqi capital.

It quotes former CIA senior official Tyler Drumheller as saying: "It was a guy trying to get his green card essentially, in Germany, and playing the system for what it was worth."

German intelligence agents warned the US in a letter that there was no way to verify Mr Alwan's claims.

However, his information was used in a speech by then Secretary of State Colin Powell at the UN to back military action in Iraq....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7075501.stm
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Anyone who still believes the Bush team just made a mistake on faulty evidence will never believe anything other than that no matter how much more evidence comes out to prove they did it on purpose. They ignore facts.
 
But many of those who recognize that the attack on Iraq was a contrived fraud can't bring themselves to take a critical look at the rationale/excuse the Bush Administration used to launch his fake "war on terror."

Their "New Pearl Harbor" was every bit as faked and contrived as the attack on Iraq .. In fact, 9/11 is an even more obvious fraud that Iraq.

Cognitive dissonance is a most powerful mindfuck indeed.
 
I think, BAC, that the game is up for Bush and his cronies. I know I'm a long way from the US but it's telling for me to listen to our domestic media and I do listen to international media (BBC World Service, Radio Canada International, NPR, Radio Deutsche Welle - English service, Radio Netherlands, mainly) and it's clear to me that Bush is now a non-entity in international affairs. The whole Bush Administration is seen as irrelevant. Rice goes here, she goes there, she achieves nothing and it's shrugged off, oh well, Rice achieved nothing as usual.
It's like the rest of the world is waiting for the next administration and this one, even with the snarling Dobermann in the background, has been sussed out for what it is. Incompetent, irrelevant and safely ignored.
 
Diuretic said:
I think, BAC, that the game is up for Bush and his cronies. I know I'm a long way from the US but it's telling for me to listen to our domestic media and I do listen to international media (BBC World Service, Radio Canada International, NPR, Radio Deutsche Welle - English service, Radio Netherlands, mainly) and it's clear to me that Bush is now a non-entity in international affairs. The whole Bush Administration is seen as irrelevant. Rice goes here, she goes there, she achieves nothing and it's shrugged off, oh well, Rice achieved nothing as usual.
It's like the rest of the world is waiting for the next administration and this one, even with the snarling Dobermann in the background, has been sussed out for what it is. Incompetent, irrelevant and safely ignored.
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You are quite correct. Bush has spent almost his entire second term as a lame duck and Rice is nothing more than a prop, an illusion of importance, and the statute that sits on the front lawn dressed like a jockey.

Additionally, world leaders that climbed into bed with these mongrels have come away with fleas, including John Howard in your own country. Hopefully, Howard will now join ...

Tony Blair of the UK
Jose Maria Aznar of Spain
Silvio Berlusconi of Italy
Viktor Yanukovych of the Ukraine
Mikulas Dzurinda of Slovakia
Kjell Magne Bondevik of Norway
Peter Medgyessy of Hungary
Rafael Hipólito Mejía Domínguez of the Dominican Republic

Who have all been kicked the fuck out of office for their idiocy.

Given the overwhelming number of Australians who oppose the war and their troops presence there, and the high approval ratings for Rudd who promises to bring their troops home, and the ass-kicking Rudd gave Howard in the debate, I think it's a sure bet that Howard will join the club of ex-leaders who now all smell like sulfur.
 
BAC - on Howard. I sincerely hope so. I want my country to throw off the last 11 years of misrule and get back to our real core values. I hope that for the US as well.
 
As did all of us who listened to the real experts at the time. The smoke and mirrors provided by Bush and team was totally evident.
 
60 minutes did the curveball story last night.

Evidently, the UN inspectors went to check out his claims, when they got into iraq in 2003. They found that everything curveball was claiming was bullshit. And this was before bush launched his war. So, Bush knew curveball was lying, but invaded anyway.
 
At that time, my argument was that the 'WMD' that they listed were not as deadly as they were suggesting and that our danger from them was minimal. I fully believed then, as well as now, that this was a botched attempt to surround the actual target with democracies.
 
RStringfield said:
I maintained that they might or might not have some low level WMDs, but that it did not matter.
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Pretty much. I think the "plan" was to create a "democratized" ME that would ensure a more stable distribution of oil. The main goal was the western "friendly" populace of Iran. By surrounding Iran with democracies they believed they could topple the Islamic regime without facing them directly and incurring Russian and Chinese anger.
 
No, the geopolitical goal was to put Iraqi oil reserves under american influence, in order to deny the Chinese influence there, and to put production and marketing nominally under multinational corporate control.
 
Cypress said:
No, the geopolitical goal was to put Iraqi oil reserves under american influence, in order to deny the Chinese influence there, and to put production and marketing nominally under multinational corporate control.
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That was a side-effect of the main goal. The Administration believed that they could create a stable environment throughout the region and thus ensure a constant supply from all main sources of oil.
 
Cypress said:
No, the geopolitical goal was to put Iraqi oil reserves under american influence, in order to deny the Chinese influence there, and to put production and marketing nominally under multinational corporate control.
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Yep that has always been my line on it.
 
Damocles said:
That was a side-effect of the main goal. The Administration believed that they could create a stable environment throughout the region and thus ensure a constant supply from all main sources of oil.
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Daayum, are you still buying that democracy line ?
 
uscitizen said:
Daayum, are you still buying that democracy line ?
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*sigh*

That they suck at actually doing what they plan doesn't change that I believe that this is what they planned. Have from the beginning, suggested so before we ever went in, spoke constantly that the main objective is, and always has been, Iran.

Pretending that the site that talks up the goals of the neo-cons doesn't specifically state this was the goal, and did long before any 9/11 attack, to spread "Western-style" democracy, they even said "based on the Constitution of the US" throughout the wold, is pretense only. It is purposefully ignoring the stated goals of a group that you are against having in power and pretending they are more simplified to fit into a small vision of their motive.
 
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