Now We Need To Revisit Lt. Michael Byrd

[T. A. Gardner]

That's interesting. The only study I see shows over 50% of officers with 11 years of service have had at least one complaint of excessive force. Do you have a source for your claim? That the majority have had no complaints or disciplinary action of any kind? The study doesn't include any disciplinary action for other infractions but it would be impossible for those to be negative in nature.

Who Are the Problem-Prone Officers? An Analysis of Citizen Complaints | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

You are making claims that aren't supported. He has had 3 instances in 21 years which doesn't appear to be that different from half of officers.
The shotgun doesn't show him to be a fuck up as a police officer. It shows he was unfamiliar with a shotgun which he probably never carried as an officer.

You are the one that is trying to use the missing records to show him as being a bad officer.

Less than 10% of officers in most police forces get investigated for misconduct.

We found 85,000 cops who’ve been investigated for misconduct. Now you can read their records.

In 2019, USA TODAY led a national effort to publish disciplinary records for police officers. George Floyd's death has renewed calls for transparency

www.usatoday.com

Now, this doesn't mention outcomes just complaints. That is, it is fully possible that an officer receiving one or two complaints over years of service simply had someone complain that was angry at the interaction and the charge dismissed.

Around 40% of current New York City police officers have never received a civilian complaint, while 32% have one or two, and one officer has 52, the highest, according to the review board.

Police disciplinary records are largely kept secret in US

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — Officer Derek Chauvin had more than a dozen misconduct complaints against him before he put his knee on George Floyd's neck.

apnews.com

Many police officers now say their colleagues simply are not doing their jobs properly, and that when they do not do their jobs, they are not held accountable.

Bad Cops Are Not Held Accountable—And Majority of Police Officers Agree

It has been more than three years since Michael Brown was killed by a police officer in Ferguson, MO, leading to protests which bordered on riots and calls for justice. Since that time there have been similar incidents across the United States. Many police officers now say their colleagues...

www.myfloridalaw.com

I would say that Byrd fits that description. Poor officer not held accountable.

If 50% or more of all police officers had complaints filed against them and those complaints were sustained, it would be a national crisis.

Your study only looks at "problem officers," not all officers. Even in it, a small number were the issue with repeat offenses and disciplinary problems.

Only 37 police officers, 7 percent of sworn law enforcement personnel, accounted for more than one-third of all complaints.

Who Are the Problem-Prone Officers? An Analysis of Citizen Complaints | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

That's out of 274 officers in the sample that had a complaint out of a department of 508. Oh, Byrd had seven, not three, disciplinary actions. That he was still able to be promoted to Lieutenant--a supervisory grade / position--says a lot about how lax the capitol police were on discipline and standards. Normally, to get to a supervisory position like that you have to demonstrate competence and ability to do all aspects of the job correctly.

So, your claim is bullshit.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Less than 10% of officers in most police forces get investigated for misconduct.

We found 85,000 cops who’ve been investigated for misconduct. Now you can read their records.

In 2019, USA TODAY led a national effort to publish disciplinary records for police officers. George Floyd's death has renewed calls for transparency

www.usatoday.com

Now, this doesn't mention outcomes just complaints. That is, it is fully possible that an officer receiving one or two complaints over years of service simply had someone complain that was angry at the interaction and the charge dismissed.

Around 40% of current New York City police officers have never received a civilian complaint, while 32% have one or two, and one officer has 52, the highest, according to the review board.

Police disciplinary records are largely kept secret in US

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — Officer Derek Chauvin had more than a dozen misconduct complaints against him before he put his knee on George Floyd's neck.

apnews.com

Many police officers now say their colleagues simply are not doing their jobs properly, and that when they do not do their jobs, they are not held accountable.

Bad Cops Are Not Held Accountable—And Majority of Police Officers Agree

It has been more than three years since Michael Brown was killed by a police officer in Ferguson, MO, leading to protests which bordered on riots and calls for justice. Since that time there have been similar incidents across the United States. Many police officers now say their colleagues...

www.myfloridalaw.com

I would say that Byrd fits that description. Poor officer not held accountable.

If 50% or more of all police officers had complaints filed against them and those complaints were sustained, it would be a national crisis.

Your study only looks at "problem officers," not all officers. Even in it, a small number were the issue with repeat offenses and disciplinary problems.

Only 37 police officers, 7 percent of sworn law enforcement personnel, accounted for more than one-third of all complaints.

Who Are the Problem-Prone Officers? An Analysis of Citizen Complaints | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

That's out of 274 officers in the sample that had a complaint out of a department of 508. Oh, Byrd had seven, not three, disciplinary actions. That he was still able to be promoted to Lieutenant--a supervisory grade / position--says a lot about how lax the capitol police were on discipline and standards. Normally, to get to a supervisory position like that you have to demonstrate competence and ability to do all aspects of the job correctly.

So, your claim is bullshit.

Trump is president with his handpicked DOJ Bondi and handpicked FBI head Patel.

If there was anything to your claims Byrd did anything wrong, why haven't they done anything about it?

Here's the short answer: Nothing will happen because Byrd did nothing wrong.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Trump is president with his handpicked DOJ Bondi and handpicked FBI head Patel.

If there was anything to your claims Byrd did anything wrong, why haven't they done anything about it?

Here's the short answer: Nothing will happen because Byrd did nothing wrong.

This is nothing but retrospective determinism coupled to a complex question fallacy. That is, you first make a disjunct by stating Trump picked the heads of the DOJ and FBI. Then ask me a complex question. That is, you start off with the answer then ask the question.

Here's the short answer: You are still a retard.

 

[Damocles]

Not only was there a crowd out there. The doors were barricaded with furniture. He would have had to move the chairs blocking the doors, unlock the doors and then open them. T.A. is demanding that he act in a manner that would have been foolish if not impossible.

The problem with a lot of police errors is the training or lack of. But in the end training can never actually match the real world experience where training can go out the window with the rush of adrenaline.

I think appropriate non lethal weapons for mobs would have made a massive difference near the beginning, shoot, probably even at that point they could have made the difference without lethal results. Rubber bullets could have convinced the mob to back off, for instance, likely would have had much the same effect it had on that mob when she was shot, stop it in its tracks. There are also guns that shoot pepper spray in what amounts to a paint gun pellet that likely would have convinced many of them to take some time for introspection as they leaked liquids that normally stay inside the body onto their shirts.

The reason for training is to allow for muscle memory and response memory, it often overcomes the adrenaline induced inappropriate responses. You often see police forces using such weapons on mobs to disperse them effectively and non-lethally.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

TR

This is nothing but retrospective determinism coupled to a complex question fallacy. That is, you first make a disjunct by stating Trump picked the heads of the DOJ and FBI. Then ask me a complex question. That is, you start off with the answer then ask the question.

Here's the short answer: You are still a retard.

Translation: I'm full of shit and, deep down, I know it.

Gotcha. Carry on, Terry.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

TR

Translation: I'm full of shit and, deep down, I know it.

Gotcha. Carry on, Terry.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

No worries, Terry. I know you can't help yourself. Sad.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Less than 10% of officers in most police forces get investigated for misconduct.

We found 85,000 cops who’ve been investigated for misconduct. Now you can read their records.

In 2019, USA TODAY led a national effort to publish disciplinary records for police officers. George Floyd's death has renewed calls for transparency

www.usatoday.com

This is misconduct and no clear method of how they came to that number since they admit that most misconduct is hidden from view.

Now, this doesn't mention outcomes just complaints. That is, it is fully possible that an officer receiving one or two complaints over years of service simply had someone complain that was angry at the interaction and the charge dismissed.

Around 40% of current New York City police officers have never received a civilian complaint, while 32% have one or two, and one officer has 52, the highest, according to the review board.

Police disciplinary records are largely kept secret in US

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — Officer Derek Chauvin had more than a dozen misconduct complaints against him before he put his knee on George Floyd's neck.

apnews.com

Many police officers now say their colleagues simply are not doing their jobs properly, and that when they do not do their jobs, they are not held accountable.

Bad Cops Are Not Held Accountable—And Majority of Police Officers Agree

It has been more than three years since Michael Brown was killed by a police officer in Ferguson, MO, leading to protests which bordered on riots and calls for justice. Since that time there have been similar incidents across the United States. Many police officers now say their colleagues...

www.myfloridalaw.com

40% have no complaints so 60% have at least one complaint. Math isn't that hard.

I would say that Byrd fits that description. Poor officer not held accountable.

If 50% or more of all police officers had complaints filed against them and those complaints were sustained, it would be a national crisis.

Your study only looks at "problem officers," not all officers. Even in it, a small number were the issue with repeat offenses and disciplinary problems.


Only 37 police officers, 7 percent of sworn law enforcement personnel, accounted for more than one-third of all complaints.

Who Are the Problem-Prone Officers? An Analysis of Citizen Complaints | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

That's out of 274 officers in the sample that had a complaint out of a department of 508. Oh, Byrd had seven, not three, disciplinary actions. That he was still able to be promoted to Lieutenant--a supervisory grade / position--says a lot about how lax the capitol police were on discipline and standards. Normally, to get to a supervisory position like that you have to demonstrate competence and ability to do all aspects of the job correctly.

So, your claim is bullshit.

Maybe math is hard for you.
The department is 508 officers. Of those 508 sworn officers, 274 had at least one complaint in 10 years. 274 is more than 50% of 508. More than 50% of officers had a complaint.
The study looked at all 508 officers and found 274 with complaints and then looked at those with complaints.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

This is misconduct and no clear method of how they came to that number since they admit that most misconduct is hidden from view.

40% have no complaints so 60% have at least one complaint. Math isn't that hard.



Maybe math is hard for you.
The department is 508 officers. Of those 508 sworn officers, 274 had at least one complaint in 10 years. 274 is more than 50% of 508. More than 50% of officers had a complaint.
The study looked at all 508 officers and found 274 with complaints and then looked at those with complaints.

Which part of valid complaint didn't you get. Byrd had repeated disciplinary actions where he was found at fault. An officer that receives a complaint or two that are found to be bogus and dismissed doesn't count. Or, are you trying to tell me, us, that every complaint lodged against a police officer is valid and the officer is in the wrong?

 

[AProudLefty]

Which part of valid complaint didn't you get. Byrd had repeated disciplinary actions where he was found at fault. An officer that receives a complaint or two that are found to be bogus and dismissed doesn't count. Or, are you trying to tell me, us, that every complaint lodged against a police officer is valid and the officer is in the wrong?

Are you arguing on his side? Incompetence being the defense.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Which part of valid complaint didn't you get. Byrd had repeated disciplinary actions where he was found at fault. An officer that receives a complaint or two that are found to be bogus and dismissed doesn't count. Or, are you trying to tell me, us, that every complaint lodged against a police officer is valid and the officer is in the wrong?

LOL. I guess it only matters if you don't know the outcome in Byrd's case because then no known outcome makes him a bad officer.

Are you actually arguing that failing to qualify with a shotgun is a valid complaint against an officer?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Are you arguing on his side? Incompetence being the defense.

No, I'm pointing out that Byrd had multiple, often serious, disciplinary issues levied against him. Yet, he was still promoted to Lieutenant, not fired, and the capitol police department in doing that put a dangerously incompetent officer in a position where he eventually wrongly killed someone.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

LOL. I guess it only matters if you don't know the outcome in Byrd's case because then no known outcome makes him a bad officer.

Are you actually arguing that failing to qualify with a shotgun is a valid complaint against an officer?

Yes. Losing your firearm is a serious issue. Given his previous fuck ups, he should have been fired for that. Shooting at a fleeing vehicle is a prohibited action under federal use of force guidelines, yet Byrd did that. Not being able to clear a federal background check for purchase of a firearm is another serious issue his department should have looked at, and they sure as hell shouldn't have issued him a shotgun for personal use.

 

[AProudLefty]

No, I'm pointing out that Byrd had multiple, often serious, disciplinary issues levied against him. Yet, he was still promoted to Lieutenant, not fired, and the capitol police department in doing that put a dangerously incompetent officer in a position where he eventually wrongly killed someone.

You're still arguing on his side.

 

[AProudLefty]

No, I'm pointing out that Byrd had multiple, often serious, disciplinary issues levied against him. Yet, he was still promoted to Lieutenant, not fired, and the capitol police department in doing that put a dangerously incompetent officer in a position where he eventually wrongly killed someone.

The question is would he let you represent him. Incompetence is not a good look on a veteran police officer.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Yes. Losing your firearm is a serious issue. Given his previous fuck ups, he should have been fired for that. Shooting at a fleeing vehicle is a prohibited action under federal use of force guidelines, yet Byrd did that.

Would you care to provide a copy of the federal use of force guidelines from 2004? (The Supreme Court says it is perfectly OK to shoot someone driving away under certain circumstances in a ruling just this year.)

Not being able to clear a federal background check for purchase of a firearm is another serious issue his department should have looked at, and they sure as hell shouldn't have issued him a shotgun for personal use.

This has absolutely nothing to do with your claim he should have been fired long before this. Hindsight is 20/20 and your vision is about 20/3000.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Would you care to provide a copy of the federal use of force guidelines from 2004? (The Supreme Court says it is perfectly OK to shoot someone driving away under certain circumstances in a ruling just this year.)

It hasn't changed since then.

1-16.000 - Department of Justice Policy On Use Of Force

www.justice.gov

This has absolutely nothing to do with your claim he should have been fired long before this. Hindsight is 20/20 and your vision is about 20/3000.

It has everything to do with it. He misused force before shooting Babbitt (firing on a fleeing vehicle). He lost his service weapon. Since shooting Babbitt, we know he failed to qualify with a shotgun, probably the easiest firearm qualification there is. You have to be exceptionally stupid to fail to qualify with a shotgun.

Note the following that is right at the top of the Use of Force policy

1. Deadly force may not be used solely to prevent the escape of a fleeing suspect.
2. Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles. Specifically, firearms may not be discharged at a moving vehicle unless: (1) a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or (2) the vehicle is operated in a manner that threatens to cause death or serious physical injury to the officer or others, and no other objectively reasonable means of defense appear to exist, which includes moving out of the path of the vehicle. Firearms may not be discharged from a moving vehicle except in exigent circumstances. In these situations, an officer must have an articulable reason for this use of deadly force.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

It hasn't changed since then.

1-16.000 - Department of Justice Policy On Use Of Force

www.justice.gov

It has everything to do with it. He misused force before shooting Babbitt (firing on a fleeing vehicle). He lost his service weapon. Since shooting Babbitt, we know he failed to qualify with a shotgun, probably the easiest firearm qualification there is. You have to be exceptionally stupid to fail to qualify with a shotgun.

Note the following that is right at the top of the Use of Force policy

1. Deadly force may not be used solely to prevent the escape of a fleeing suspect.
2. Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles. Specifically, firearms may not be discharged at a moving vehicle unless: (1) a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or (2) the vehicle is operated in a manner that threatens to cause death or serious physical injury to the officer or others, and no other objectively reasonable means of defense appear to exist, which includes moving out of the path of the vehicle. Firearms may not be discharged from a moving vehicle except in exigent circumstances. In these situations, an officer must have an articulable reason for this use of deadly force.

The document you cited has only existed since 2018. Quoting a document first created in 2018 doesn't tell us anything about the policy in 2004.
I asked for the document from 2004. It appears you are unable to understand how time works.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The document you cited has only existed since 2018. Quoting a document first created in 2018 doesn't tell us anything about the policy in 2004.
I asked for the document from 2004. It appears you are unable to understand how time works.

It hasn't changed. I had to train to the federal standard back then. Little or nothing has changed. This use of force model:

was in use then. We, I, got handed a credit card sized version of that as part of training. The unit I was in then had all enlisted getting the equivalent of federal armed security guard training. Didn't matter I was never going to be doing it. I had to get it so I could properly supervise those that were doing it.

 

[FastLane]

It hasn't changed. I had to train to the federal standard back then. Little or nothing has changed. This use of force model:

was in use then. We, I, got handed a credit card sized version of that as part of training. The unit I was in then had all enlisted getting the equivalent of federal armed security guard training. Didn't matter I was never going to be doing it. I had to get it so I could properly supervise those that were doing it.

These people would be going insane if this was a local white police officer that shot down an unarmed Black suspect.