Obama Apology Tour
- Thread starter RockX
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TuTu Monroe
A Realist
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
Nelly was born in 1799, which means that she was between 20 when George died- hardly a 3 year old. *shrug*
The age wasn't the point. The assumption is. George went into a room and did something she couldn't see, doesn't know about, and he doesn't tell her what it is, and it is "evidence" of his Christianity...
Stupid.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
Obviously George did more than that. He was President, after all, for eight years when she was between 10 and 18.
There is also, of course, his affiliations with Christian churches of the day...
But don't let the massive amount of evidence contrary to your faith and belief stop you from wishing with all your might that you are correct. *shrug*
Again, George told people that knew him that he went to church to satisfy a wish of his wife's not of his own. And again, it is unimportant to me if George was a Christian or not. I know he believed in God, because he was a freemason, but using, "He went alone into a room, talked nothing of it, and wouldn't let anybody else in." as evidence of his Christianity is silly.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
Obviously you've created a caricature of her observations.
Not particularly, it describes it accurately. Obviously you have taken the assumption of another as stronger evidence than it is, and the reasoning behind the assumption as something more than it is.
Her evidence for his Christianity is how he went somewhere alone daily to do something that he wouldn't talk about and would not let her participate in. It isn't evidence of anything other than her assumption based on what she wanted George to be and her "shock" at people wondering.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
Again you've created a caricature by focusing in on a portion of one sentence instead of looking at all eight paragraphs provided in the link as a whole with their obvious logical train of thought and conclusion. But I suppose one must justify their beliefs somehow. *shrug*
And I believe that you are projecting your action onto me.
I read the letter and at the end, in the paragraph before the signature, of that letter she makes no certain determination and says that he "must have been Christian" because his wife didn't fear for his soul when he died.
I read what she wrote and understand her presumptions, and even she did not make that certain statement as you do.
He may have been Christian, or he may not have been. It really isn't that important, but to say you have a certainty when even his granddaughter makes it clear that there was no certain answer only subjective evidence, well is assumptive and directly does what you attempt to accuse me of here.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
So your standard now raises to past beyond reasonable doubt.
Dude, even a person who was that close could not say with a certainty and only gives vague evidence based on what she couldn't know and hadn't seen, yet you attempt to make me believe you have certainty. It's silly.
This is not evidence of his Christianity, it wasn't even to his granddaughter. Even she had some doubt, otherwise the letter wouldn't have used "must have".
You've tried to prove something that is unprovable with the evidence at hand, even for those with first-hand knowledge.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
Nothing is certain only beyond reasonable doubt.
W
WinterBorn
Guest
How about a quote from the minister of his church?
"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26
Apparently Dr. Abercrombie not only wrote this but spoke of it to friends.
"When Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days when the sacrament of the Lord's Supper was to be administered, Washington's custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, upon communion days, 'he absented himself altogether from church.'"
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the "Religion of the Presidents," published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26
"In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them am as I now do you."
-- The Right Reverend William White, the first bishop of Pennsylvania, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ's Church in Philadelphia, which Washington attend for about 25 years when he happened to be in that city, in a letter to Colonel Mercer of Fredericksberg, Virginia, on August 15, 1835, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27
"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26
Apparently Dr. Abercrombie not only wrote this but spoke of it to friends.
"When Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days when the sacrament of the Lord's Supper was to be administered, Washington's custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, upon communion days, 'he absented himself altogether from church.'"
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the "Religion of the Presidents," published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26
"In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that General Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant. I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them am as I now do you."
-- The Right Reverend William White, the first bishop of Pennsylvania, friend of Washington and bishop of Christ's Church in Philadelphia, which Washington attend for about 25 years when he happened to be in that city, in a letter to Colonel Mercer of Fredericksberg, Virginia, on August 15, 1835, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27
W
WinterBorn
Guest
Additional information concerning Washington's "prayer".
"George Washington's Prayer For The United States"
From a simple dispatch of official business was constructed a fabulous prayer that is used to this day as "evidence" of George Washington's Christian piety.
The interpolated words that are not from the Washington letter are in underlined bold red type.
The Alleged Prayer:
Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep these United States in Thy holy protection, that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of Whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
-- Engraved on a bronze tablet in St Paul's Chapel, Broadway and Vesey Streets, New York City, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 19-20
The final line is the language with which all prayers in the Episcopal Prayer Book end.
The words of the Washington letter that were removed from the Washington letter and interpolated by the prayer-maker are in underlined bold black type.
Actual Statement:
I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the state over which you preside, in his holy protection; that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow-citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose examples in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.
I have the honor to be, with much esteem and respect, sir, your Excellency's most obedient and most humble servant. -- G Washington.
-- George Washington, letter sent to the governors in 1783, urging them to quell anarchy and riots by alleviating distress and discontent, quoted from Ford's Writings of Washington, vol. x, p. 265, also quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 19-20
The original letter is not in Washington's handwriting, but was penned by one of his secretaries, most of whom were allowed to make their own embellishments.
The only other instance in the entire known body of Washington's writings where he would have mentioned Jesus Christ is a childhood poem. But unfortunately for those who would inflict post mortem Christian piety upon George Washington, this poem is the only known instance of any Christian sentiments penned with George Washington's own hand.
This and the previous post were taken from: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/washington.htm
"George Washington's Prayer For The United States"
From a simple dispatch of official business was constructed a fabulous prayer that is used to this day as "evidence" of George Washington's Christian piety.
The interpolated words that are not from the Washington letter are in underlined bold red type.
The Alleged Prayer:
Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep these United States in Thy holy protection, that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of Whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
-- Engraved on a bronze tablet in St Paul's Chapel, Broadway and Vesey Streets, New York City, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 19-20
The final line is the language with which all prayers in the Episcopal Prayer Book end.
The words of the Washington letter that were removed from the Washington letter and interpolated by the prayer-maker are in underlined bold black type.
Actual Statement:
I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the state over which you preside, in his holy protection; that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow-citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose examples in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.
I have the honor to be, with much esteem and respect, sir, your Excellency's most obedient and most humble servant. -- G Washington.
-- George Washington, letter sent to the governors in 1783, urging them to quell anarchy and riots by alleviating distress and discontent, quoted from Ford's Writings of Washington, vol. x, p. 265, also quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 19-20
The original letter is not in Washington's handwriting, but was penned by one of his secretaries, most of whom were allowed to make their own embellishments.
The only other instance in the entire known body of Washington's writings where he would have mentioned Jesus Christ is a childhood poem. But unfortunately for those who would inflict post mortem Christian piety upon George Washington, this poem is the only known instance of any Christian sentiments penned with George Washington's own hand.
This and the previous post were taken from: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/washington.htm
Which, again, the person close to him had. Clearly. You are getting desperate now. You post this as "proof" that he is a Christian, and even this close relative had doubts.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
You must be getting desperate to argue that these are words of doubt:
W
WinterBorn
Guest
He didn't take communion. He walked out after the sermon and before the communion. The minister of the church testified to that.
maineman
Banned
believing in God and believing in Jesus Christ as one's risen savior are two entirely different things. Devout Jews could easily pledge allegiance to their God and their country. I would have thought you would have known that.
LOL. Again. For those who think it is "proof" that he was a Christian....
Even his granddaughter could not say with any certainty that he was Christian. If this is your "evidence" then you have none.