'Obamaville' sign posted near homeless camp

Damocles said:
And again, slowed inertia doesn't make it "better than" when we had more jobs, more money, less foreclosures, less credit card defaults...

You are basing it on confidence, which is an emotion. Confidence is good, and if it exists other than in your own mind it signifies that we may start to climb back to where we were in January in job numbers and wealth, but we are certainly not "better than" we were in January.
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If you only look at your narrow factors.... we are specifically WORSE off, we have less money in the account, but if you look at the overall picture we are in a MUCH better position. Are these semantics better for you...

While we are technically worse off financally, we are in a better position, economically.
 
Jarod said:
That depends, I would rather have the $300 looking forward toward making more than have the $30,000 looking at loosing it all.

I would admit that you have less money in the bank and if you are only lookin at that one narrow factor.... you are worse off.

I had $40,000.00 in an account in June, I took all of that out and spend it on starting a law firm.... at one point I only had about $4,000 in that account. At the time I had the $4000.00 in the account, I considered myself much better off than when I started and had the $40,000 in that account.
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The difference was, there was no law firm. But I am thinking about starting one now, was I better off with the $30,000 or with the $300?
 
Damocles said:
No. I want to trade the amount of jobs we had in January for what we have in December. Even better, I'd like to trade the level of wealth for what we had in the beginning of September of '08.
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Again - cherrypicking.

I think the much more telling admission is that you wouldn't trade this month for January. I think that gives us much more information on which you think is "better".
 
Onceler said:
Again - cherrypicking.

I think the much more telling admission is that you wouldn't trade this month for January. I think that gives us much more information on which you think is "better".
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Not cherry picking, simply looking at reality.

It is like a sports injury, we are at the point where degeneration has slowed enough that soon we might be able to start physical therapy, the leg isn't "better", nor are we out of the woods and may still have another setback.
 
Damocles said:
The difference was, there was no law firm. But I am thinking about starting one now, was I better off with the $30,000 or with the $300?
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But it is comparable because when the nation had the "$30,000" there was no apprapitus for rebuilding the economy but we needed one.

So are we better off with the "30,000.00" and looking at a sharp downward fall, or are we better off with 300.00 and looking at a long and sustained recovery.

Id rather have the $300.00 facing our current future than have the $30,000 facing what the future looked like last January....!
 
Damocles said:
Not cherry picking, simply looking at reality.

It is like a sports injury, we are at the point where degeneration has slowed enough that soon we might be able to start physical therapy, the leg isn't "better", nor are we out of the woods and may still have another setback.
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Cherrypicking, AND hairsplitting.

The leg isn't better from it's completely healthy state. But it's much better than it was when it was injured, and it's the state of being you would choose if your only choice was the time right after you injured it, or the present.
 
Onceler said:
Again - cherrypicking.

I think the much more telling admission is that you wouldn't trade this month for January. I think that gives us much more information on which you think is "better".
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Argument won! Rarely can you pinpoint the turning point of a debate, but here it is!
 
Jarod said:
That depends, I would rather have the $300 looking forward toward making more than have the $30,000 looking at loosing it all.

I would admit that you have less money in the bank and if you are only lookin at that one narrow factor.... you are worse off.

I had $40,000.00 in an account in June, I took all of that out and spend it on starting a law firm.... at one point I only had about $4,000 in that account. At the time I had the $4000.00 in the account, I considered myself much better off than when I started and had the $40,000 in that account.
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interesting scenario....but completely unrelated....let's try something more akin to the current situation.....you had nothing in your bank account in June......you borrowed $40k to start a law firm......you spent it all on envelopes to send invoices to your clients.....no stationery, just envelopes.....you still owe the $40k, you haven't got a law firm yet, but a prospective client just called you......you feel good.....
 
Jarod said:
But it is comparable because when the nation had the "$30,000" there was no apprapitus for rebuilding the economy but we needed one.

So are we better off with the "30,000.00" and looking at a sharp downward fall, or are we better off with 300.00 and looking at a long and sustained recovery.

Id rather have the $300.00 facing our current future than have the $30,000 facing what the future looked like last January....!
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And that is emotion, which is the starting point where the journey begins back to where we were. We are not "better" than we were then, we have less jobs, less money, more foreclosures (that is current, more happening now), and we still may have another setback with the consumer credit crunch and the foreclosures.

You have hope, I understand that. You have hope that we may at some time get back to where we were and we all have the goal to surpass where we were. But that doesn't change that the car still needs fixing, the leg still needs therapy and neither are "better" than before.
 
Onceler said:
Cherrypicking, AND hairsplitting.

The leg isn't better from it's completely healthy state. But it's much better than it was when it was injured, and it's the state of being you would choose if your only choice was the time right after you injured it, or the present.
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No, in my scenario the leg has been degenerating and it is worse off than it was. There are indications that the degeneration has slowed and that we MAY begin therapy soon (but haven't yet), but it is still on the losing end. It is most definitely NOT BETTER than when it was injured, and it may still have a setback.

Please read the analogy again, before you get all excited and think you made your "point" which is, "worse is better when we have 'hope'..."

The goal isn't to feel better about the goal of getting back on the field, that is just a starting point, my leg won't be better until I can play again.
 
Jarod said:
Argument won! Rarely can you pinpoint the turning point of a debate, but here it is!
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Thanks. Personally, I thought it was over when Damo made the inane claim that things were better in January, but it was nice to hear him finally admit he was wrong about that.
 
Damocles said:
And that is emotion, which is the starting point where the journey begins back to where we were. We are not "better" than we were then, we have less jobs, less money, more foreclosures (that is current, more happening now), and we still may have another setback with the consumer credit crunch and the foreclosures.

You have hope, I understand that. You have hope that we may at some time get back to where we were and we all have the goal to surpass where we were. But that doesn't change that the car still needs fixing, the leg still needs therapy and neither are "better" than before.
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I have hope and that hope is based on SOUND FACTS, sure its an emotion, but its an emotion based in reality and fact. You asked where I would rather be, I would rather be in this January than last. I would rather face the comming year than the last year. My hope is based on reasonable and sound projections established by a proven scientific model.
 
Jarod said:
I have hope and that hope is based on SOUND FACTS, sure its an emotion, but its an emotion based in reality and fact. You asked where I would rather be, I would rather be in this January than last. I would rather face the comming year than the last year. My hope is based on reasonable and sound projections established by a proven scientific model.
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lol......
 
Jarod said:
I have hope and that hope is based on SOUND FACTS, sure its an emotion, but its an emotion based in reality and fact. You asked where I would rather be, I would rather be in this January than last. I would rather face the comming year than the last year. My hope is based on reasonable and sound projections established by a proven scientific model.
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Again, I have hope my leg will get better, but that doesn't make it better.

That is just the starting point on a much longer journey towards where we were, we aren't even close to the destination of "better"...
 
To not understand that confidence is one of the cornerstones of our economy is admitting to some pretty willful ignorance. You're talking about hope as though it is some personal emotion that applies only to someone's personal philosophy. Within the context of an economic discussion, hope is just as relevant as productivity or manufacturing output....
 
Damocles said:
Again, I have hope my leg will get better, but that doesn't make it better.

That is just the starting point on a much longer journey towards where we were, we aren't even close to the destination of "better"...
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considering the fact we need to pay back a trillion dollar debt before we approach where we were last January, it will take a long time before we're close to "even".........
 
Damocles said:
And that is emotion, which is the starting point where the journey begins back to where we were. We are not "better" than we were then, we have less jobs, less money, more foreclosures (that is current, more happening now), and we still may have another setback with the consumer credit crunch and the foreclosures.

You have hope, I understand that. You have hope that we may at some time get back to where we were and we all have the goal to surpass where we were. But that doesn't change that the car still needs fixing, the leg still needs therapy and neither are "better" than before.
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BTW, not back to where we were..... Cleraly not back to where we were, thats the point. We dont want to go back to where we were.... WE are currently in a better place than we were.... That $30,000 in the bank was a flase and inflated figure that made people feel falsely secure. We want to build to a place where we have $30,000 in the bank and are on a strong footing to turn it into $300,000, we have taken the first steps on that journey.

When you find yourself in a hole (last January) the first step is to stop digging. We have stopped digging, I know we are three feet deeper than last January, but we have stopped digging, step one complete... Now lets climb out.

Id rather be on the ship 10 feet from an iceberg but stoped than on a ship 100 feet from an iceberg but speeding toward it.
 
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