one mllion electric cars

[Rune]

You sound like you designed it and I'm somehow "insulting" you personally. You make many assumptions, and most of them are bad assumptions.

I have driven one, it was interesting but not the superior vehicle worth the money they'd have to make on it. As I said, Tesla designed and produced a vehicle on which they make a profit, it is expensive, but they made it worth it. People line up to buy them, not so with the Volt and the idea that everybody has to drive one before they'll like them is silly. People like Corvettes, not because everybody has driven it, but because they are frickin' cool. People like the Tesla and want one because it is frickin' awesome.

If you want to make a car that everybody wants to buy you have to make it not suck. And that is from somebody who absolutely has driven one, and found it wanting for my purposes.

More reality: they couldn't sell enough of them to make money, that is a bad business model even if you pretend that it isn't. This is with tax incentives, and the company selling at a loss. They did the right thing idling that plant, they need to retool and do better or this grape will die on the vine.

Nice duck and cover. Too bad you ignored the more important points I made.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Nice duck and cover. Too bad you ignored the more important points I made.

yep...no wonder rune runs from discussing this issue with me. he knows all his has are insults.

 

[Damocles]

Nice duck and cover. Too bad you ignored the more important points I made.

No, it's the in the make excuses portion. Again, the electric car is alive, there just won't be a million and at this point they won't be Chevy's... Somebody with vision created one that didn't suck, then another... and people are buying them and the company makes a profit. The idea, make it not suck, make it special and something people want to drive... I think it is a great plan.

The main problem with the blame Bush idea is that there are successful models out there, even with that built in excuse. (BTW-you can't set something back a decade in 8 years unless you are magic.)

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

People who can afford the most expensive Porches. Apples to oranges.

First of all, the most expensive Porsches run in the neighborhood of $200k, while the topend Tesla Model S costs around $110k. Also, there are variations of the Model S that start in the $50k range and work up to the highend price.

No, it is not an economy car. But it was never designed to be an economy car. But the $50k to $60k range is where plenty of cars are priced.

It is apples to apples. The Tesla did several things that will eventually make cars like the Volt workable. First, they didn't redesign a gasoline car to be electric, they started from scratch at an electric car. Second, they created a vehicle with a decent range for people. 40 miles per day is pretty paltry. The lowest rated Tesla gets 160 miles on a full charge, and the best gets 300.

 

[Disillusioned]

Dumb question? None of these things you use on a regular basis would exist without taxes.

You asked if I had used the internet, given that this is an internet forum... Ya, it's a dumb question.



As to the second part, I'm not anti-tax, I'm anti exclusive tax. There's a reason that taxes are done as a percentage, we're sorted that part out. Now explain why the rich who already pay a larger flat number, need to pay a larger percentage than anyone else.

This seems to be some kind of medieval christian "money is evil" thing.

 

[Disillusioned]

1. Who said anything about taxing the rich more? The problem is that they pay less, not more. I pay almost 4 times as much as a percentage of my income as Mitt does. Is that fair?

2. With absolutely no doubt, the rich both use and benefit more from this country's infrastructure. This is not debatable on any level.
Why should they not pay proportionately?

I love that 4 times as much a percentage, which skips over how he pay in raw numbers probably more than ten times as much as you do. By the way how do you know how much he pays when he's "hiding his tax returns evilly"? There was a nice stat somewhere that the top 1% of taxpayers make up over 50% of the countries' income. Not sure If it's totally acurate, but wouldn't have a hard time believing it.

10% of 5,000,000 is a lot more than 14% of 10,000.

 

[Disillusioned]

They aren't the reason we have any jobs. Mitt pays 13%. You really think if he was paying 28% he wouldn't invest any of his money?

And jsut think if we took ALL his money it would be even BETTER.

Justification of course being the easier bit, "Don't worry when we raise taxes instead of ceasing to spend money like drunken drug addicts in a meth lab. After all it's not you we're grabbing money from."

 

[Disillusioned]

(BTW-you can't set something back a decade in 8 years unless you are magic.)

Damo I agree with your arguments but in the spirit of honesty, I have to tell you you're wrong.

You could set humanity back 10000 years in a day if you started a nuclear war.

 

[Damocles]

Damo I agree with your arguments but in the spirit of honesty, I have to tell you you're wrong.

You could set humanity back 10000 years in a day if you started a nuclear war.

The reality is, research on these machines did not stop with Bush and actually Tesla began in 2003... During that period (Bush's terms) the electric car went from nothing to reality and a successful company with a solid business model created something that people actually want. And they will improve on this and outstrip the crappy business model that brought that mismanaged Volt into being.

I should have said, "Short of war..." but I assumed most people understood my meaning and I take it as you meant it... Yeah, with a huge pack of death you can set something back that far, but Bush didn't nuke GM, they just chose to go in a different direction. Apparently good business decisions can only be made in Rune's world if the Government forces them... Reality notwithstanding...

 

[Rune]

I love that 4 times as much a percentage, which skips over how he pay in raw numbers probably more than ten times as much as you do. By the way how do you know how much he pays when he's "hiding his tax returns evilly"? There was a nice stat somewhere that the top 1% of taxpayers make up over 50% of the countries' income. Not sure If it's totally acurate, but wouldn't have a hard time believing it.

Wow, math is not your forte. I would have to be a 1%er myself to pay even 10% of what Mitt pays. I do OK, but I am not nearly in the top 1% of income earners in the country. My point is that I pay over half of what I earn to the government, while Mitt pays ridicuoulsly less. You do realize that Mitt released one year of his taxes, right?
Furthermore, you are good with 1% of the population earning 50% of the income?

10% of 5,000,000 is a lot more than 14% of 10,000.

Again with the retard math. Why am I wasting my time talking to you?

 

[Rune]

And jsut think if we took ALL his money it would be even BETTER.

Justification of course being the easier bit, "Don't worry when we raise taxes instead of ceasing to spend money like drunken drug addicts in a meth lab. After all it's not you we're grabbing money from."

How would it be better if we took all his money? How is that logical?

You do realize that Democrats are far more fiscally conservative than republicans, right?

Do you have ANY valid points at all, or just untrue GOP talking points (lies) to spread about?

 

[Rune]

First of all, the most expensive Porsches run in the neighborhood of $200k, while the topend Tesla Model S costs around $110k. Also, there are variations of the Model S that start in the $50k range and work up to the highend price.

No, it is not an economy car. But it was never designed to be an economy car. But the $50k to $60k range is where plenty of cars are priced.

It is apples to apples. The Tesla did several things that will eventually make cars like the Volt workable. First, they didn't redesign a gasoline car to be electric, they started from scratch at an electric car. Second, they created a vehicle with a decent range for people. 40 miles per day is pretty paltry. The lowest rated Tesla gets 160 miles on a full charge, and the best gets 300.

Yes, if you can afford an expensive porche, you can afford a tesla. Most cannot. A Volt can be leased for $268/month. Apples to oranges.
Second, the volt is not a re-design of a gas car. Where ever did you get that idea?
Third, e average person in this country drives 12,000 miles a year, or less than 40 miles per day. For the average person, the Volt is capable of performing most if not all of their driving needs in electric mode, BUT, if they need to go further on any given day or trip they can, hence it's design elegance.

I can drive a Volt from from my house to New York City (250 miles) with out recharging or refueling. Not so with the Tesla. I can then fill the gas tank and drive all the way to L.A. (with mulitiple gas refills) in one continuous shot. The Tesla (only the longest range version) would require ten days to make the trip from New York to L.A.

So yeah, the Tesla is wicked cool for pulling up to nightclubs, but the Volt can get you anywhere on the continent. Apples to oranges.

 

[Rune]

The reality is, research on these machines did not stop with Bush and actually Tesla began in 2003... During that period (Bush's terms) the electric car went from nothing to reality and a successful company with a solid business model created something that people actually want. And they will improve on this and outstrip the crappy business model that brought that mismanaged Volt into being.

I should have said, "Short of war..." but I assumed most people understood my meaning and I take it as you meant it... Yeah, with a huge pack of death you can set something back that far, but Bush didn't nuke GM, they just chose to go in a different direction. Apparently good business decisions can only be made in Rune's world if the Government forces them... Reality notwithstanding...

You could set something back a hundred years in one minute as your friend delusional pointed out. In fact that is the entire tragedy of the eight years of Bush, the damage he did to the county as a whole will likely outlive him. Most of us are sadly well aware of this fact.

Until Bush raised the CAFE standards and opened the floodgates of SUVs, the Volt was supposed to be released in 2004. Research did indeed stop at GM. Research on the Volt only started again after the gas shock of mid-Bush. Deny reality all you want.

During that period (Bush's terms) the electric car went from nothing to reality and a successful company with a solid business model created something that people actually want.

No, the electric car did not go from nothing to reality. WTF. Ever heard of the EV1? GM already had a production electric car. Bush's fantasy hydrogen cell economy litterally caused GM to kill the EV1. Yes, Bush . killed. the. EV1. If you don't know recent history, at least watch the vids I posted, or butt out of the conversation.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Yes, if you can afford an expensive porche, you can afford a tesla. Most cannot. A Volt can be leased for $268/month. Apples to oranges.
Second, the volt is not a re-design of a gas car. Where ever did you get that idea?
Third, e average person in this country drives 12,000 miles a year, or less than 40 miles per day. For the average person, the Volt is capable of performing most if not all of their driving needs in electric mode, BUT, if they need to go further on any given day or trip they can, hence it's design elegance.

I can drive a Volt from from my house to New York City (250 miles) with out recharging or refueling. Not so with the Tesla. I can then fill the gas tank and drive all the way to L.A. (with mulitiple gas refills) in one continuous shot. The Tesla (only the longest range version) would require ten days to make the trip from New York to L.A.

So yeah, the Tesla is wicked cool for pulling up to nightclubs, but the Volt can get you anywhere on the continent. Apples to oranges.

The Tesla was never meant to be a cheap car. What great innovation has ever been aimed at the bottom end of the economy first?

The Volt is basically a hybrid with the capability to be run for short distance on batteries. The Tesla is designed to be a totally electric car, without sacrificing anything except cross country trips.

 

[Rune]

The Tesla was never meant to be a cheap car. What great innovation has ever been aimed at the bottom end of the economy first?

The Volt is basically a hybrid with the capability to be run for short distance on batteries. The Tesla is designed to be a totally electric car, without sacrificing anything except cross country trips.

Again, NO. The volt is not a hybrid in any way shape or form. The volt is a 100% electric car, with an onboard battery charger. It cannot run in hybrid mode.
Hybrids use both the gas engine and the electric motor for propulsion. The volt uses only the electric motor for propulsion.

The Volt has an electric only range of more miles than the average american drives in a day. The Tesla is the real toy here, not the real solution you make it out to be. That status is reserved for the Volt.

The main problem that the Volt has is overcoming the kind of ignorance being exspressed in this thread.

Edit, "cross coutry trips", really? I already pointed out that one can't even do a half a day drive in the Tesla without charging it overnight. Hardly cross country.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Again, NO. The volt is not a hybrid in any way shape or form. The volt is a 100% electric car, with an onboard battery charger. It cannot run in hybrid mode.
Hybrids use both the gas engine and the electric motor for propulsion. The volt uses only the electric motor for propulsion.

The Volt has an electric only range of more miles than the average american drives in a day. The Tesla is the real toy here, not the real solution you make it out to be. That status is reserved for the Volt.

The main problem that the Volt has is overcoming the kind of ignorance being exspressed in this thread.

Edit, "cross coutry trips", really? I already pointed out that one can't even do a half a day drive in the Tesla without charging it overnight. Hardly cross country.

Other than vacations, when was the last time you drove more than 300 miles in a single day? I can drive from Tuscaloosa AL (west central AL)to Chattanooga TN (south east TN) on a single charge.

Ok, the Volt not a hybrid, per se, in that the gas engine does not run the car. But it is also not a purely electric car. That the gasoline burned powers a charger and not the wheels is splitting hairs. But you are still going from using a lot of gas to using much less. Not getting off gasoline altogether.

The Volt is a fine car. It is small and not particularly refined, but a fine car. But they don't sell. And that is the point of my argument. The business model depended on american drivers lining up to purchse them in great numbers. It didn't happen. And since it didn't happen, the production has stopped. The Tesla, on the other hand, has a business model that produces cars and makes a profit. And started an entire car company up from scratch.

 

[Rune]

Other than vacations, when was the last time you drove more than 300 miles in a single day? I can drive from Tuscaloosa AL (west central AL)to Chattanooga TN (south east TN) on a single charge.

Ok, the Volt not a hybrid, per se, in that the gas engine does not run the car. But it is also not a purely electric car. That the gasoline burned powers a charger and not the wheels is splitting hairs. But you are still going from using a lot of gas to using much less. Not getting off gasoline altogether.

The Volt is a fine car. It is small and not particularly refined, but a fine car. But they don't sell. And that is the point of my argument. The business model depended on american drivers lining up to purchse them in great numbers. It didn't happen. And since it didn't happen, the production has stopped. The Tesla, on the other hand, has a business model that produces cars and makes a profit. And started an entire car company up from scratch.

Thanks for your honesty and reading comprehensions skills, greatly apreciate that.

Allow me to revisit one issue if you will?

For the vast majority of americans, the Volt can supply all their driving needs on electric only.
For the rare time when they need to drive further, they can, in fact with no limits whatsoever, and that my friend, from this engineer's perspective, is design elegance!

As to the sales/business model debate; it is not over until the fat lady sings, and just so you know; Toyota is heavily involved with Tesla. They are hardly a stand alone start up. (of course GM is heavily invested in Toyota, but hey, splitting hairs and all that.)

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Thanks for your honesty and reading comprehensions skills, greatly apreciate that.

Allow me to revisit one issue if you will?

For the vast majority of americans, the Volt can supply all their driving needs on electric only.
For the rare time when they need to drive further, they can, in fact with no limits whatsoever, and that my friend, from this engineer's perspective, is design elegance!

As to the sales/business model debate; it is not over until the fat lady sings, and just so you know; Toyota is heavily involved with Tesla. They are hardly a stand alone start up. (of course GM is heavily invested in Toyota, but hey, splitting hairs and all that.)

The man went out and found investors for his product. That is the way it is done.

 

[canceled.2021.1]

Wow, math is not your forte. I would have to be a 1%er myself to pay even 10% of what Mitt pays. I do OK, but I am not nearly in the top 1% of income earners in the country. My point is that I pay over half of what I earn to the government, while Mitt pays ridicuoulsly less. You do realize that Mitt released one year of his taxes, right?
Furthermore, you are good with 1% of the population earning 50% of the income?



Again with the retard math. Why am I wasting my time talking to you?

Stop lying. You do not pay half of what you earn to the federal gobblement in income taxes. If you do, then you don't know how to do your taxes. I am fine with 1% of the population earning 50% of income. What do you propose? Taking it from them?

 

[canceled.2021.1]

Thanks for your honesty and reading comprehensions skills, greatly apreciate that.

Allow me to revisit one issue if you will?

For the vast majority of americans, the Volt can supply all their driving needs on electric only.

How do you know?

For the rare time when they need to drive further, they can, in fact with no limits whatsoever, and that my friend, from this engineer's perspective, is design elegance!

No limits? Really? Could you spend a week in Yellowstone Park on vacation? What about driving in snow? What about a trip to Sam's Club? What about carpooling your kids three friends to school?

As to the sales/business model debate; it is not over until the fat lady sings, and just so you know; Toyota is heavily involved with Tesla. They are hardly a stand alone start up. (of course GM is heavily invested in Toyota, but hey, splitting hairs and all that.)

You claim to be an engineer, but you obviously didn't go to business school. If you build something for $89,000 and sell it for $49,000 you aren't going to be in business long. Even if you built something people want, which they haven't with the Volt.

If you want to buy a tuna can for a car, god bless. I don't give two shits. But stop lecturing the rest of us and pretending to know what our driving habits are. You central planners ALWAYS get it wrong