Oscar Grant - Shot and Killed by BART Police

Mottleydude said:
It's a strawman because it misrepresents the issue.
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how.....

nothing i said nor the author of that article misrepresented anything, especially not anyone's argument. a simple misrepresentation is not a strawman.

no strawman was committed, you need to look up the definition of stawman...

i think you know that i raised a good point and the author raises a good point, so good you merely attack instead of discuss the issues raised.
 
Yurt said:
how.....

nothing i said nor the author of that article misrepresented anything, especially not anyone's argument. a simple misrepresentation is not a strawman.

no strawman was committed, you need to look up the definition of stawman...

i think you know that i raised a good point and the author raises a good point, so good you merely attack instead of discuss the issues raised.
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The murders of black men in any circumstance gets attention, including when other blacks do it. When caught, they go to prison.

Is it your argument that no attention should be paid when police officers engage in the murders of black men? If that's not your position then your argument is a strawman and has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. In fact, it's a stupid argument.

Police officers who kill innocent people should go to jail just like any other murderer who gets caught.
 
blackascoal said:
The murders of black men in any circumstance gets attention, including when other blacks do it. When caught, they go to prison.

Is it your argument that no attention should be paid when police officers engage in the murders of black men? If that's not your position then your argument is a strawman and has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. In fact, it's a stupid argument.

Police officers who kill innocent people should go to jail just like any other murderer who gets caught.
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you obviously do not know what a strawman is either....

the argument is that the same outrage should be given...just like chip said, where is all this protesting over the hundreds of black men killed every year? it is not a strawman at all, it is observation about the total lack of objectivity....to what is really going on.

that is not a strawman, i am not mischaracterizing anyone's argument. i am merely wondering why there is so much outrage over this one killing when there is virtual silence on the hundreds of other killings of black men. i am not saying the outrage is wrong in this case, i am saying that it is puzzling why the same outrage is not given over the hundreds of other murders. it is not an argument, it is observation....

apparently some people on this board do not know what a strawman argument is, so let me help you:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
 
Yurt said:
you obviously do not know what a strawman is either....

the argument is that the same outrage should be given...just like chip said, where is all this protesting over the hundreds of black men killed every year? it is not a strawman at all, it is observation about the total lack of objectivity....to what is really going on.

that is not a strawman, i am not mischaracterizing anyone's argument. i am merely wondering why there is so much outrage over this one killing when there is virtual silence on the hundreds of other killings of black men. i am not saying the outrage is wrong in this case, i am saying that it is puzzling why the same outrage is not given over the hundreds of other murders. it is not an argument, it is observation....

apparently some people on this board do not know what a strawman argument is, so let me help you:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
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Your argument has nothing to do with position X .. but I don't really care what you call it .. it's a bullshit argument. Hopefully you don't need Wikipedia to understand bullshit.

a) There is outrage on more killings than just police shootings and if you need someone to hold your hand to demonstrate this widely known fact to you I'll be happy to do so.

b) You may notice that I said "shootings", plural .. because the murder of innocent black men happen all the time .. yet, you want to compare the outrage of ONE police shooting to ALL the shootings of black men. Kinda' stupid and not well thought out.

c) What objectivity? If you and Chip are unaware that outrage and protest does indeed happen when black men are killed even by other black men, then what fucking "objectivity" are you talking about? Neither you or Chip seem to have a clue about the subject you claim expertise in.

Further demonstrating you and Chip's total ignorance on this subject .. this just happened today ..

Black males lead protests against Black male violence
http://newpittsburghcourieronline.c...otests-against-Black-male-violence/Page1.html

How about I give 3 brownie points for your defense of strawman

... then add 1000 knucklehead points for posting bullshit.
 
blackascoal said:
Your argument has nothing to do with position X .. but I don't really care what you call it .. it's a bullshit argument. Hopefully you don't need Wikipedia to understand bullshit.

a) There is outrage on more killings than just police shootings and if you need someone to hold your hand to demonstrate this widely known fact to you I'll be happy to do so.

b) You may notice that I said "shootings", plural .. because the murder of innocent black men happen all the time .. yet, you want to compare the outrage of ONE police shooting to ALL the shootings of black men. Kinda' stupid and not well thought out.

c) What objectivity? If you and Chip are unaware that outrage and protest does indeed happen when black men are killed even by other black men, then what fucking "objectivity" are you talking about? Neither you or Chip seem to have a clue about the subject you claim expertise in.

Further demonstrating you and Chip's total ignorance on this subject .. this just happened today ..

Black males lead protests against Black male violence
http://newpittsburghcourieronline.c...otests-against-Black-male-violence/Page1.html

How about I give 3 brownie points for your defense of strawman

... then add 1000 knucklehead points for posting bullshit.
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having nothing to do with position X is a red herring NOT a strawman genius....

but my question and chips question goes to a real concern. it is not bullshit to wonder why those same people are not protesting hundreds of murder in like outrage. your little link does nothing to dispel that concern. the outrage is no where near the same in intensity....especially in SF as chip pointed out... i guess you only care about the ONE murder because a police man did it, screw them black guys because it was gang land or other type murders...real nice.
 
blackascoal said:
Not to mention the power and authority of a police officer is given by the citizens he's supposed to be protecting.
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it's disgusting, and it's pervasive ignoring of the racism by the right.

When's the last time you saw a white frat boy executed like this. Sickening
 
Yurt said:
having nothing to do with position X is a red herring NOT a strawman genius....

but my question and chips question goes to a real concern. it is not bullshit to wonder why those same people are not protesting hundreds of murder in like outrage. your little link does nothing to dispel that concern. the outrage is no where near the same in intensity....especially in SF as chip pointed out... i guess you only care about the ONE murder because a police man did it, screw them black guys because it was gang land or other type murders...real nice.
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Now your argument has travelled to the ignorant zone .. which is fine by me .. I don't really expect much from you brother.

BEFORE, your foolish unresearched fallacous argument was that protest and demonstrations gainst the murders of black men by black men don't take place .. NOW, it's about the "intensity" .. AND, more importantly, you still remain purposefully ignorant because you didn't research to discover that this protests is but one of many that take place.

Additionally, you keep talking about ONE shooting .. but did you even take the time to research if police have shot unarmed men in Oakland before?

Of course you didn't .. you didn't because you pretend to know what you're talking about .. not someone who takes the time to actually know.

I HAD a friend, his name WAS Kenneth Walker. College-educated engineer, family man with a 3 yera-old daughter, no criminal record, good man.

Murdered by police, shot TWICE in the back of the head while laying still on the ground complying with a cops orders.
http://www.csdp.org/news/news/justcriminal.htm

While you're at the link read the story of a 92 year-old black woman who was sitting alone in a rocking chair in her home when police burst through the door and blasted her to death .. then made up a lie that drugs were being dealt from her house and, Annie Oakley style, she managed to shoot all three officers who burst into her home .. ALL PROVEN LIES

... but these aren't things you care about and I'm sure you don't give a rats ass about Ken's daughter or his wife and family.

Big deal .. just ONE shooting.
 
Topspin said:
it's disgusting, and it's pervasive ignoring of the racism by the right.

When's the last time you saw a white frat boy executed like this. Sickening
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Can you imagine the outrage and call for new police procedures that would occur if police burst through the door and murdered a 92-year-old white woman sitting alone in her own home?
 
bac,

you're changing the topic, chip and i were talkign about the people in berkloryville, gangoakland et al..now you are bringing up other issues and instances....read chips article...the people there do not protest with the same outrage (and yes i always said that so intensity is not a new argument)....facts suck for you, sorry

further, i am sure that no protest has the same outrage, and chip agrees...no matter where you link it to. people are scared of the criminals, but are not scared to protest the police yet in the same breath indicate that the police are worse than the criminals....if so....and the police are so evil and scary....then you should have no problem stoppign the hundreds of other murders...

hopefully in the future you will have your logical fallacies correct and not ignorantly blurt out strawman to everything....
 
Yurt said:
bac,

you're changing the topic, chip and i were talkign about the people in berkloryville, gangoakland et al..now you are bringing up other issues and instances....read chips article...the people there do not protest with the same outrage (and yes i always said that so intensity is not a new argument)....facts suck for you, sorry

further, i am sure that no protest has the same outrage, and chip agrees...no matter where you link it to. people are scared of the criminals, but are not scared to protest the police yet in the same breath indicate that the police are worse than the criminals....if so....and the police are so evil and scary....then you should have no problem stoppign the hundreds of other murders...

hopefully in the future you will have your logical fallacies correct and not ignorantly blurt out strawman to everything....
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As I said when this conversation began .. I don't expect much from you.

Here's some of what you said ...

"with all due respect to this incident, why is it the same people who get so angry and get up off their proverbial couches to action over this DO NOT get off their asses for gang land or other type killings?

why is it they only march and get upset over police killings? do you and they ever stop to thihnk that if they marched to the thug killings etc...that maybe, just maybe crime would go down?"

and ..

"yeah, how dare anyone get upset over gang killings and other murders, yeah

yeah, let's only get upset when the government wrongs us, yeah

yeah, let's not do anything about teh crime in our neighborhood, yeah"

I've colored the really ignorant and uneducated parts of your words in crayons in the hope that perhaps you'll figure it out.

Every fucking word you said is false .. and I've proven it false. You are uneducated my brother because you've yet to take the time to find out what steps are being taken to quell the violence in neighborhoods .. and to take this a step beyond your and Chip's capacity .. do you really think marching and protest is an effective way to deal with internal issues .. or is it best suited to deal with external issues?

Violence in black neighborhoods is an internal issues, complicated by external forces .. such as the injustice of the criminal system. There are other steps being taken unbeknownst to dummies.

I can't really get to deep into this conversation with you brother because you haven't demonstrated a capacity to acknowledge truth and reality.

Stop being a dummy and research what you claim you know.

Question: 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year .. why get so upset about 3,000 that died in 9/11?
 
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i'm calling bullshit on your weak attempts to make a point with no real factual evidence, they do not get up off their asses and protest like they did for the police killing....chip, an SF columnist agrees....seems you are the one who is wrong based on some measely protest in another state when i was talking about the folks in SF....oooh, one protest another state...that does not disprove my point or chip's point at all....that is...where is the anger over the hundreds of killings/murders each year when committed by non police officers...

fact remains and as i have said all along, the anger and indignation is not the same...oh, its an internal issue...that is the weakest excuse i have heard...guess then you should leave the police alone and not protest them as the it is an internal issue :pke:

my comments are accurate and backed up by a liberal writer who lives in SF....
 
"Question: 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year .. why get so upset about 3,000 that died in 9/11?"

Because it was of a catastrophic, sensational nature? An all out act of vengence or even war? The terror was seen on most all television sets that morning? Just a guess.

I am not sure but maybe you want someone to say something like "because the majority of those that died on 9/11 were upper class white folks (a false notion I think) and the majority of the gun violence deaths are lower class black folks."

I really don't think that is the reason though there may be a hint of truth to it. I think it is the sensationalistic venue of things like 9/11 or Katrina that gets people to sit up and take notice. Usually gun violence deaths are here and there, a person or two at a time, and people may or may not even be aware of them unless it is some crazed event like Columbine or Virginia Tech or a mall in Nebraska.

I am glad this nitwit finally got arrested and it looks like will stand trial for what he did. Based on the video evidence he wouldn't want me on a jury for his trial. I just think there is more to the conversation that what most want it to boil down to. It seems that people on one side cannot see justification for people on the other side and vice versa. Are there bad cops? You betcha. Find them and put them in jail. Nothing makes me madder than to see someone abuse a position. Is gang violence a problem? Yep. Do the same for those violators as well.
 
leaningright said:
"Question: 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year .. why get so upset about 3,000 that died in 9/11?"

Because it was of a catastrophic, sensational nature? An all out act of vengence or even war? The terror was seen on most all television sets that morning? Just a guess.

I am not sure but maybe you want someone to say something like "because the majority of those that died on 9/11 were upper class white folks (a false notion I think) and the majority of the gun violence deaths are lower class black folks."

I really don't think that is the reason though there may be a hint of truth to it. I think it is the sensationalistic venue of things like 9/11 or Katrina that gets people to sit up and take notice. Usually gun violence deaths are here and there, a person or two at a time, and people may or may not even be aware of them unless it is some crazed event like Columbine or Virginia Tech or a mall in Nebraska.

I am glad this nitwit finally got arrested and it looks like will stand trial for what he did. Based on the video evidence he wouldn't want me on a jury for his trial. I just think there is more to the conversation that what most want it to boil down to. It seems that people on one side cannot see justification for people on the other side and vice versa. Are there bad cops? You betcha. Find them and put them in jail. Nothing makes me madder than to see someone abuse a position. Is gang violence a problem? Yep. Do the same for those violators as well.
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My question about 9/11 was rhetorical. I put it Yurt who seems to believe that a murder is a murder and should be responded to and judged the same.
 
blackascoal said:
Can you imagine the outrage and call for new police procedures that would occur if police burst through the door and murdered a 92-year-old white woman sitting alone in her own home?
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People like superfreak would try impeaching Obama.

This tool (superfreak) sounds like he's a gun control guy with the above argument. Which I doubt he is, he's just playing that card to cover his blatent racism.
Black guys getting executed by the Government, is in no way comparable to any murder. He's a pea brained Bush lover with a Nazi mustache
 
Topspin said:
People like superfreak would try impeaching Obama.

This tool (superfreak) sounds like he's a gun control guy with the above argument. Which I doubt he is, he's just playing that card to cover his blatent racism.
Black guys getting executed by the Government, is in no way comparable to any murder. He's a pea brained Bush lover with a Nazi mustache
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Top, Yurt is not Superfreak.
 
Yurt said:
i'm calling bullshit on your weak attempts to make a point with no real factual evidence, they do not get up off their asses and protest like they did for the police killing....chip, an SF columnist agrees....seems you are the one who is wrong based on some measely protest in another state when i was talking about the folks in SF....oooh, one protest another state...that does not disprove my point or chip's point at all....that is...where is the anger over the hundreds of killings/murders each year when committed by non police officers...

fact remains and as i have said all along, the anger and indignation is not the same...oh, its an internal issue...that is the weakest excuse i have heard...guess then you should leave the police alone and not protest them as the it is an internal issue :pke:

my comments are accurate and backed up by a liberal writer who lives in SF....
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Who cares what you call bullshit on? I called you four pages ago on this thread.
 
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