Our Torture Society

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Here are a couple of commies, and I'd guess, homosexuals, talking about torture and how it doesn't work and its consequences in today's WAPO. On the heels of the torture-fest that the Republican party held the other night, and with Bush looking to firm up CIA torture, it makes for an interesting read.

Of course, these two guys have no knowledge of what they are talking about, and in the final analysis, you have to go with the chicken shits who avoided Vietnam and give orders to torture people from air-conditioned offices in Washington DC. Still, it's always nice to get another opinion.

It's Our Cage, Too
Torture Betrays Us and Breeds New Enemies

By Charles C. Krulak and Joseph P. Hoar
Thursday, May 17, 2007; A17



Fear can be a strong motivator. It led Franklin Roosevelt to intern tens of thousands of innocent U.S. citizens during World War II; it led to Joseph McCarthy's witch hunt, which ruined the lives of hundreds of Americans. And it led the United States to adopt a policy at the highest levels that condoned and even authorized torture of prisoners in our custody.

Fear is the justification offered for this policy by former CIA director George Tenet as he promotes his new book. Tenet oversaw the secret CIA interrogation program in which torture techniques euphemistically called "waterboarding," "sensory deprivation," "sleep deprivation" and "stress positions" -- conduct we used to call war crimes -- were used. In defending these abuses, Tenet revealed: "Everybody forgets one central context of what we lived through: the palpable fear that we felt on the basis of the fact that there was so much we did not know."

We have served in combat; we understand the reality of fear and the havoc it can wreak if left unchecked or fostered. Fear breeds panic, and it can lead people and nations to act in ways inconsistent with their character.

The American people are understandably fearful about another attack like the one we sustained on Sept. 11, 2001. But it is the duty of the commander in chief to lead the country away from the grip of fear, not into its grasp. Regrettably, at Tuesday night's presidential debate in South Carolina, several Republican candidates revealed a stunning failure to understand this most basic obligation. Indeed, among the candidates, only John McCain demonstrated that he understands the close connection between our security and our values as a nation.

Tenet insists that the CIA program disrupted terrorist plots and saved lives. It is difficult to refute this claim -- not because it is self-evidently true, but because any evidence that might support it remains classified and unknown to all but those who defend the program.

Article Continues: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/16/AR2007051602395_pf.html
 
By Charles C. Krulak and Joseph P. Hoar


Yeah, I've heard of the Hoar guy. He's a general, isn't he? An expert on interogation?

Virtually every credible professional intelligence expert i've ever seen interviewed, says torture is an ineffective way at getting accurate information. And that's beyond the simple questions about morality and legality.


The bloodthirsty cheerleaders for torture alwasy seem to be the Rush Limbaughs and David Horowitz's of the world.
 
To me this condoning of torture by a noticable portion of the US society concerns me greatly. We are edging into the abyss, we are becoming the enemy....
 
Even if torture worked we shouldn't practice it. It is an abomination. We become our enemies if we employ such tactics. America bears a heavy burden. It is supposed to be the bulwark of democracy, freedom, liberty, and human rights. You can't be if you torture people.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Even if torture worked we shouldn't practice it. It is an abomination. We become our enemies if we employ such tactics. America bears a heavy burden. It is supposed to be the bulwark of democracy, freedom, liberty, and human rights. You can't be if you torture people.
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I agree, and there is a part of me which detests the fact that many of us have begun using the so-called rational argument, which is "it doesn't work" because are we saying that if it did work, then that would be ok? As a side point of interest, it's fine to mention that it doesn't work, too many fools believe from watching "24" that it does work. But I don't think it should have become our main argument against it.
 
uscitizen said:
To me this condoning of torture by a noticable portion of the US society concerns me greatly. We are edging into the abyss, we are becoming the enemy....
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I don't think people's attitudes have changed that much. I think what's changed, is that people who've secretly loved war and torture for their whole lives, are now comfortable openly advocating it in public discourse.

Rightwing talk radio, Alberto Gonzalez, Fox News, Drudge, etc, have all made it semi-acceptable to fantasize about torturing suspected muslim terrorists.

If I had to guess, I'd say at least 20 to 30% of americans are - and always have been - authoritarians by nature. Indeed, its' not limited to america. Probably the same statistics apply to all people on the planet. We're just living in an age, where authoritarian americans are now emboldened to talk about their sadistic torture fantasies in public.
 
Frankly it is politically expedient. Saying it doesn' work is a nice out. Honestly if I was running I'd probably stress that fact more. It's less ideological. Many if not most people have some sadistic tendencies and saying you don't wish to visit torture upon terrorists who are considered the scum of the earth won't endear you to many.
 
Cypress said:
I don't think people's attitudes have changed that much. I think what's changed, is that people who've secretly loved war and torture for their whole lives, are now comfortable openly advocating it in public discourse.

Rightwing talk radio, Alberto Gonzalez, Fox News, Drudge, etc, have all made it semi-acceptable to fantasize about torturing suspected muslim terrorists.

If I had to guess, I'd say at least 20 to 30% of americans are - and always have been - authoritarians by nature. Indeed, its' not limited to america. Probably the same statistics apply to all people on the planet. We're just living in an age, where authoritarian americans are now emboldened to talk about their sadistic torture fantasies in public.
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I think this is right.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Frankly it is politically expedient. Saying it doesn' work is a nice out. Honestly if I was running I'd probably stress that fact more. It's less ideological. Many if not most people have some sadistic tendencies and saying you don't wish to visit torture upon terrorists who are considered the scum of the earth won't endear you to many.
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I know. Only John McCain, who actually was tortured, has been able to talk some about how it is morally wrong. And I think that Americans accept it from him, because they figure he's f'd in the head from being tortured, and give him a pass on it. But if anyone else were to say that, if especially, a suspected liberal were to say it, they'd be buried with it.
 
Exactly McCain can do it because he has an out. Nobody else does.

Not something I would say on a political platform, but personally I think anyone who advocates torture should experience it for a day and see how they feel later about it.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Exactly McCain can do it because he has an out. Nobody else does.

Not something I would say on a political platform, but personally I think anyone who advocates torture should experience it for a day and see how they feel later about it.
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I've thought that a lot about so-called torture light, like stress positions and loud noise, and being kept from sleeping. I have so much wanted to see what would happen to peopel I have know who advocated this on message boards, when they were exposed to it. I can imagine just how bad this stuff gets, they can't seem to. So, maybe they need the first hand experience.
 
yeah people who make light of such things astound me. Sleep deprivation in particular can be rather severe. Limiting sleep I would say is not torture. But keeping people up for 22 hours consistently certainly is.
 
Cypress said:
I don't think people's attitudes have changed that much. I think what's changed, is that people who've secretly loved war and torture for their whole lives, are now comfortable openly advocating it in public discourse.

Rightwing talk radio, Alberto Gonzalez, Fox News, Drudge, etc, have all made it semi-acceptable to fantasize about torturing suspected muslim terrorists.

If I had to guess, I'd say at least 20 to 30% of americans are - and always have been - authoritarians by nature. Indeed, its' not limited to america. Probably the same statistics apply to all people on the planet. We're just living in an age, where authoritarian americans are now emboldened to talk about their sadistic torture fantasies in public.
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I think I agree with that. that goes along with the about 1/3 33.33333333 ~ for Dixie :) But anyway I figure about 30% of this country are what I consider to be evil leaning for several reasons....this figure might well hold true for the human race as a whole.
 
Here's another thing. Most of the people in Gitmo have been there for some time and were captured in the Afghan conflict. Do we really think at this point they have any relevant information to give.
 
IHateGovernment said:
yeah people who make light of such things astound me. Sleep deprivation in particular can be rather severe. Limiting sleep I would say is not torture. But keeping people up for 22 hours consistently certainly is.
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Out of the three of those, (sleep deprevation, loud noise and stress positions) it would be the loud noise that would get to me fastest. Not that sleep deprevation and stress positions sound good, they don't. I figure that in some of these "stress positions" you can end up wishing you were dead within hours. But loud noise, I would be crying within minutes. I can't tolerate loud noise for long. Like motorcycles, or things like that. I would die before I would go to a race track, for just that reason. I have always been that way. It's torture to me.
 
Darla said:
I've thought that a lot about so-called torture light, like stress positions and loud noise, and being kept from sleeping. I have so much wanted to see what would happen to peopel I have know who advocated this on message boards, when they were exposed to it. I can imagine just how bad this stuff gets, they can't seem to. So, maybe they need the first hand experience.
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Wingnuts over on the other board argued passionately that induced-hypothermia ("light" torture, as you say) was not inhumane, or cruel - thus did not amount to torture.

You know who invented induced hypothermia as a torture-interogation technique? The Nazis.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Here's another thing. Most of the people in Gitmo have been there for some time and were captured in the Afghan conflict. Do we really think at this point they have any relevant information to give.
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No. And if we could charge them with a crime, or a conspiracy to commit one, we would. We can't. Most of them are completely innocent. We can't release them because of how we have treated them. We have created a hell.
 
Cypress said:
Wingnuts over on the other board argued passionately that induced-hypothermia ("light" torture, as you say) was not inhumane, or cruel - thus did not amount to torture.

You know who invented induced hypothermia as a torture-interogation technique? The Nazis.
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Yes, it was them that I was thinking of. Do you ever think about, just how evil are those people, that when you change message boards, you don't find those opinions? They can really get you to having fixed opinions about certain kinds of people, but then, maybe they are representative of no one, except for a group of five or six really evil bastards who happened to find each other on the internet.

But maybe there are some like that on FP? I don't know. I wonder about it though.
 
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