Penny used a long known pro wrestling "sleeper" hold on Neely.

[Nomad]

I still believe that Penny had no intention of killing or harming Neely, but I think he used a risky and reckless pro-wrestling move that I often saw on TV wrestling in my youth.

I recognized it the instant I saw the picture.

When I was a kid in the late 60's, my favorite thing to watch on Saturday morning TV after the cartoons were finished, was a local, live broadcast called "Championship Wrestling From Florida". Hosted by commentator Gordon Solie, it was video taped in nearby Orlando at what would eventually be renamed The Eddie Graham Sports Stadium.

One of the regular wrestlers had a signature move called The Sleeper Hold which he often employed to literally put his opponents to sleep. The use of this hold can be traced back to the 1880's.

Very simply, it involved getting one's arm around the opponent's neck from behind and using the other hand placed across the forehead, to turn the opponent's head slightly so that the bicep and forearm around the neck, cut off the blood flow in both carotid arteries, causing the opponent to lose consciousness without cutting off the windpipe.

Eventually some other wrestlers adopted the move, but most wouldn't because it was considered too dangerous.

In the comparison photo below, which I put together, there is little doubt as to what Penny was attempting to employ...

Again, I don't hold anything against Penny for trying to protect himself and other passengers from Neely's fit of rage, but he should have known better than to employ that particular technique.

Especially after the George Floyd incident and some others.

 

[Lightbringer]

I still believe that Penny had no intention of killing or harming Neely, but I think he used a risky and reckless pro-wrestling move that I often saw on TV wrestling in my youth.

I recognized it the instant I saw the picture.

When I was a kid in the late 60's, my favorite thing to watch on Saturday morning TV after the cartoons were finished, was a local, live broadcast called "Championship Wrestling From Florida". Hosted by commentator Gordon Solie, it was video taped in nearby Orlando at what would eventually be renamed The Eddie Graham Sports Stadium.

One of the regular wrestlers had a signature move called The Sleeper Hold which he often employed to literally put his opponents to sleep. The use of this hold can be traced back to the 1880's.

Very simply, it involved getting one's arm around the opponent's neck from behind and using the other hand placed across the forehead, to turn the opponent's head slightly so that the bicep and forearm around the neck, cut off the blood flow in both carotid arteries, causing the opponent to lose consciousness without cutting off the windpipe.

Eventually some other wrestlers adopted the move, but most wouldn't because it was considered too dangerous.

In the comparison photo below, which I put together, there is little doubt as to what Penny was attempting to employ...

Again, I don't hold anything against Penny for trying to protect himself and other passengers from Neely's fit of rage, but he should have known better than to employ that particular technique.

Especially after the George Floyd incident and some others.

It appears to me you're lying because your entire post is about holding something against him.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

It is easy to judge after the fact but when you are in the situation you don’t have time to think

Now if you have years of practice putting choking moves on people you will probably know what is excessive but Penny didn’t have that training

 

[Nomad]

It appears to me you're lying because your entire post is about holding something against him.

It appears to me that you're nothing more than a worthless moronic troll with nothing of any value to add.

 

[Nomad]

It is easy to judge after the fact but when you are in the situation you don’t have time to think

Now if you have years of practice putting choking moves on people you will probably know what is excessive but Penny didn’t have that training

If he knew how to perform the hold, he had some practice at it. Possibly learned it in his Marine hand to hand combat training. Even common sense should have been enough to tell him to use a different hold.

I don't want to see him punished excessively, but he did unnecessarily cause a death, and the law says we can't do that.

Even if the guy who died practically begged for it.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Pressing down the carotid arteries causes unconsciousness well before death.
If Penny did it that way, it was definitely intentional murder. He didn't stop while Neely was still alive.

 

[TOP]

It's very very sad to see that anyone belives that this was intentional... and one of the reasons that he has so much support from the vast majority...If one person feels that way that's one too many...

 

[NiftyNiblick]

It's very very sad to see that anyone belives that this was intentional... and one of the reasons that he has so much support from the vast majority...If one person feels that way that's one too many...

I think that I gave a pretty good and scientifically valid argument for it being intentional.

 

[TOP]

I think that I gave a pretty good and scientifically valid argument for it being intentional.

I know you think you do... and you are not alone...
I stand by what I
said, however...

 

[Tinkerpeach]

If he knew how to perform the hold, he had some practice at it. Possibly learned it in his Marine hand to hand combat training. Even common sense should have been enough to tell him to use a different hold.

I don't want to see him punished excessively, but he did unnecessarily cause a death, and the law says we can't do that.

Even if the guy who died practically begged for it.

The man was threatening others, once he did that he risked losing his life.

How many innocent people have died because nobody acted?

 

[NiftyNiblick]

The man was threatening others, once he did that he risked losing his life.

How many innocent people have died because nobody acted?

Even if we concede your points, they do not inform the issue as to whether the homicide was intentional.
Nobody is accusing Penny of premeditated murder.

The issue is whether he went on to terminate Neely after Neely was no longer a threat.
If Penny simply shot Neely in the head, he'd actually have an easier case to defend.
There's the issue of continuing to choke him after resistance ceased that should be a problem for him.

 

[Nordberg]

The man was threatening others, once he did that he risked losing his life.

How many innocent people have died because nobody acted?

He hurt nobody. He made people feel uncomfortable. I suppose to rightys, the deserved death. Holding him in a choke hold for 15 minutes is way, way past accidental death. He killed him because he wanted to.

 

[TOP]

He hurt nobody. He made people feel uncomfortable. I suppose to rightys, the deserved death. Holding him in a choke hold for 15 minutes is way, way past accidental death. He killed him because he wanted to.

He wasn't just making people feel uncomfortable.. He was raging.. possibly even under the influence of psychotic drugs..
Which according to his uncle he was self-medicating with ..
K2 to be specific....people were terrified..
Do you have a link that proves 15-minute chokehold? And I have never seen a single comment that said he deserved to die have you?

 

[Nomad]

The man was threatening others, once he did that he risked losing his life.

How many innocent people have died because nobody acted?

You don't need to defend Penny stepping in and taking action to me.

I applaud that he got involved.

All I'm saying is that he used the wrong restraint technique.

Now he's in trouble he didn't need to be in.

 

[Nomad]

He hurt nobody. He made people feel uncomfortable. I suppose to rightys, the deserved death. Holding him in a choke hold for 15 minutes is way, way past accidental death. He killed him because he wanted to.

Oh stop it, Nora.

Neely had everyone so afraid of what he might do, they got out of their seats and huddled together at one end of the train car.

He put people in fear for their lives.

That alone justified Penny stepping in.

His only mistake was in the choice of restraining hold he used.

The message every potential future good Samaritan ought to glean from this case, the Floyd case and others is...

KEEP OFF OF NECKS AND CHESTS.
DO NOT IMPEDE BREATHING OR BLOOD FLOW TO CRANIUMS.

New rule of thumb.

 

[evince]

It is easy to judge after the fact but when you are in the situation you don’t have time to think

Now if you have years of practice putting choking moves on people you will probably know what is excessive but Penny didn’t have that training

He had time to think


He had minutes to think



People were telling him to STOP or he would kill the guy


You just like death

 

[zappasguitar]

It's very very sad to see that anyone belives that this was intentional... and one of the reasons that he has so much support from the vast majority...If one person feels that way that's one too many...

I hate to break it to you, but "It was an accident, I didn't mean to kill him", is NOT an acceptable defense.

It may not have been intentional, but he still KILLED someone and he needs to be punished.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Pro wrestling is theater.

 

[Althea]

I think that I gave a pretty good and scientifically valid argument for it being intentional.

It's possible that he just freaked out and adrenalated? This guy posed no physical threat as several people had him subdued. Intentional or not, it was criminally negligent homicide.

What I find hysterical is that a centuries old rear naked choke somehow got glorified and renamed 'sleeper hold'. Of course, nothing about 'wrestling' is real, including the actual sleeping.

It sure as hell works in MMA, though

 

[Althea]

Oh stop it, Nora.

Neely had everyone so afraid of what he might do, they got out of their seats and huddled together at one end of the train car.

He put people in fear for their lives.

That alone justified Penny stepping in.

His only mistake was in the choice of restraining hold he used.

The message every potential future good Samaritan ought to glean from this case, the Floyd case and others is...

KEEP OFF OF NECKS AND CHESTS.
DO NOT IMPEDE BREATHING OR BLOOD FLOW TO CRANIUMS.

New rule of thumb.

If a raging lunatic is struggling, it might be harder to subdue him employing other methods.

As you suggest, the issue is the length of time he chose to engage the choke. Clearly the victim stopped struggling.