Political Gang Cultures

[Iolo/Penderyn]

For a good few years now, starting very much in the 'States but evident in most countries, because of new media and a few other things, groups of people have been able, more and more, to live in closed worlds in which they hear only one version of events, so that politics becomes increasingly the mere exchange of abuse. It makes me wonder whether democracy can possibly survive without serious debate. I think the problem is greatest in the USA, however, because the people who have become the followers of Trump seem, like earlier anti-democratic movements, simply uninterested in even appearing rational (which is why I keep calling them 'fascist' or 'nazi'), and they seem to have pushed aside the serious believers in capitalism and conservative values, who used to be able to make some sort of case for what they thought. It is all very well just shouting back - my Wife says I am unbelievably calm and placid when I can work off my negative feelings on barely-literate and pointlessly-aggressive trumpers - but I seriously begin to wonder if the human race can survive not only pandemics and world-overheating but this turn to savagery. It's not quite as bad over here, but America is the current centre of world capitalism, and where it goes others tend to follow. Does anyone see any way, other than Civil War, that we can get back to the compromise we used to manage, or is it going to be a matter or revolution or death? I'm thinking more of my own family than about an abstract Humanity, obviously, but aren't we all?

 

[Tacomaman]

I believe that we are headed for a revolution at some point. Whether social class, or ideology difference become the catalyst remains unknown. I just think that we cannot continue on our current path indefinately.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I believe that we are headed for a revolution at some point. Whether social class, or ideology difference become the catalyst remains unknown. I just think that we cannot continue on our current path indefinately.

A pandemic and a depression together can surely handle the job of forcing a coming to the end of the road on current failed schemes, schemes that have been largely mismanaged for a generation, because not enough people could be found to give enough of a damn about the work of the society getting done well.

 

[AProudLefty]

My wise friend once told me, "government is mobism".

 

[Jack]

For a good few years now, starting very much in the 'States but evident in most countries, because of new media and a few other things, groups of people have been able, more and more, to live in closed worlds in which they hear only one version of events, so that politics becomes increasingly the mere exchange of abuse. It makes me wonder whether democracy can possibly survive without serious debate. I think the problem is greatest in the USA, however, because the people who have become the followers of Trump seem, like earlier anti-democratic movements, simply uninterested in even appearing rational (which is why I keep calling them 'fascist' or 'nazi'), and they seem to have pushed aside the serious believers in capitalism and conservative values, who used to be able to make some sort of case for what they thought. It is all very well just shouting back - my Wife says I am unbelievably calm and placid when I can work off my negative feelings on barely-literate and pointlessly-aggressive trumpers - but I seriously begin to wonder if the human race can survive not only pandemics and world-overheating but this turn to savagery. It's not quite as bad over here, but America is the current centre of world capitalism, and where it goes others tend to follow. Does anyone see any way, other than Civil War, that we can get back to the compromise we used to manage, or is it going to be a matter or revolution or death? I'm thinking more of my own family than about an abstract Humanity, obviously, but aren't we all?

China may emerge as the 'World Leader' and other countries will follow suit. America may go the way of Great Britain, leaving a mark in the History Books.

 

[Hawkeye10]

China may emerge as the 'World Leader' and other countries will follow suit. America may go the way of Great Britain, leaving a mark in the History Books.

There is no "may" about it....poor performance gets charged, and we have surely performed poorly over a very long time.....just look around.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

For a good few years now, starting very much in the 'States but evident in most countries, because of new media and a few other things, groups of people have been able, more and more, to live in closed worlds in which they hear only one version of events, so that politics becomes increasingly the mere exchange of abuse. It makes me wonder whether democracy can possibly survive without serious debate. I think the problem is greatest in the USA, however, because the people who have become the followers of Trump seem, like earlier anti-democratic movements, simply uninterested in even appearing rational (which is why I keep calling them 'fascist' or 'nazi'), and they seem to have pushed aside the serious believers in capitalism and conservative values, who used to be able to make some sort of case for what they thought. It is all very well just shouting back - my Wife says I am unbelievably calm and placid when I can work off my negative feelings on barely-literate and pointlessly-aggressive trumpers - but I seriously begin to wonder if the human race can survive not only pandemics and world-overheating but this turn to savagery. It's not quite as bad over here, but America is the current centre of world capitalism, and where it goes others tend to follow. Does anyone see any way, other than Civil War, that we can get back to the compromise we used to manage, or is it going to be a matter or revolution or death? I'm thinking more of my own family than about an abstract Humanity, obviously, but aren't we all?

Thanks for posting an interesting observation even though I disagree with some parts. First, a quick review of the European Colonial Era up through all those exciting changes in Germany circa 1930s prove none of this crap began with the United States. At worst, we imported it from our Euro brethren.

Second, the US is obviously the 400 lb gorilla in the room so, even though the US may be on par with other nations in terms of assholishness, it's felt more around the world because of our national powers.

Lastlyl, yes, democracy can survive, but as the US found out in Iraq, a "US-version of Democracy" doesn't easily transfer to other cultures. In the end, some form of Democratic Socialization will exist along with a global coalition government, but a lot of stuff has to happen to get there. Mainly technological, but also social. IMHO, a lot of the social stuff will follow the technology. I like to use the Star Trek analogy because Gene Roddenberry was pretty far sighted when it came to things like tech and society. A lot of the tech in his 1960s show exists now: communicators=cellphones, hospital beds which can read vitals, doors that automatically open and close, talking computers, etc. What we don't have yet but are essential to a "Star Trek" form of Democratic Socialism is both a "replicator"= 3D printer and fusion power. I think most of us will live to see the latter two but won't live long enough to see the "Star Trek" form of global society come into existence.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

China may emerge as the 'World Leader' and other countries will follow suit. America may go the way of Great Britain, leaving a mark in the History Books.

Always a possibility, but look at the 50-100 year cycles of progress. Human beings have many problems, one of which is having social changes keep up with technological changes. In short, we're equivalent to chimps playing with loaded guns. Fortunately, it appears the human simians have dodged the WWIII nuclear armageddon trap.

The Fermi Paradox is based upon the high number of other intelligent civilizations there are in our galaxy. Fermi famously asked "But where is everybody?" since we should have found signs of them by that time. One answer is alluded to above: there is a point in every civilization where they create the power to destroy themselves and then do it. The result is anything from a dead world to pushing them back to a Stone Age society. In that respect, the human race may actually be ahead of the curve.

Human culture in a nutshell:

 

[Cypress]

For a good few years now, starting very much in the 'States but evident in most countries, because of new media and a few other things, groups of people have been able, more and more, to live in closed worlds in which they hear only one version of events, so that politics becomes increasingly the mere exchange of abuse. It makes me wonder whether democracy can possibly survive without serious debate. I think the problem is greatest in the USA, however, because the people who have become the followers of Trump seem, like earlier anti-democratic movements, simply uninterested in even appearing rational (which is why I keep calling them 'fascist' or 'nazi'), and they seem to have pushed aside the serious believers in capitalism and conservative values, who used to be able to make some sort of case for what they thought. It is all very well just shouting back - my Wife says I am unbelievably calm and placid when I can work off my negative feelings on barely-literate and pointlessly-aggressive trumpers - but I seriously begin to wonder if the human race can survive not only pandemics and world-overheating but this turn to savagery. It's not quite as bad over here, but America is the current centre of world capitalism, and where it goes others tend to follow. Does anyone see any way, other than Civil War, that we can get back to the compromise we used to manage, or is it going to be a matter or revolution or death? I'm thinking more of my own family than about an abstract Humanity, obviously, but aren't we all?

If we ever get end gerrymandering, voter suppression, the electoral college, deplorable-type Republicans will never win a national election, nor hold disproportionate influence over Congress and the courts.

In 21st century America we have been generally living under the Tyranny of the Minority

 

[Dutch Uncle]

There is no "may" about it....poor performance gets charged, and we have surely performed poorly over a very long time.....just look around.

Is the glass half-empty or half-full. It's hard to see that the world is doing fine when oneself is actually mired up to their neck in shit after falling into an outhouse.

The best way to determine how we are doing is to take the long view, not just recent events or present circumstances.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

If we ever get end gerrymandering, voter suppression, the electoral college, deplorable-type Republicans will never win a national election, nor hold disproportionate influence over Congress and the courts.

In 21st century America we have been generally living under the Tyranny of the Minority

Disagreed almost 100%. Democrats are just as happy to gerrymander as Republicans. The EC protects the entire nation from tyranny of the majority on relatively small areas of the entire nation; in short, you can't get 38 states to agree to it without asserting an authoritarian Constitution-shredding government. There will always be a Left and Right, conservative and liberal, father and mother types of divides. That's human nature. It's a achieving a balance that's important, not trying to kill off the opposite side. People who can't agree to disagree in a civilized manner aren't civilized.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Is the glass half-empty or half-full. It's hard to see that the world is doing fine when oneself is actually mired up to their neck in shit after falling into an outhouse.

The best way to determine how we are doing is to take the long view, not just recent events or present circumstances.

The best way to determine how we are doing is to learn what is going on currently, and compare that to history, what tends to happen in that situation.

A good understanding of human nature is also essential.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The best way to determine how we are doing is to learn what is going on currently, and compare that to history, what tends to happen in that situation.

A good understanding of human nature is also essential.

Agreed. Now, how far back to we go? The last Democrat Presidency? Back to Reagan? The Civil War? Even before ours was a nation?


Agreed on human nature.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Agreed. Now, how far back to we go? The last Democrat Presidency? Back to Reagan? The Civil War? Even before ours was a nation?


Agreed on human nature.

I remember when I was learning to drive, I asked my dad how far ahead he looked, he said "As far as I can see".

When one looks back at history I say the same thing, look as far as you can see.




Note: I appreciate your civil and educated post.

 

[countryboy]

For a good few years now, starting very much in the 'States but evident in most countries, because of new media and a few other things, groups of people have been able, more and more, to live in closed worlds in which they hear only one version of events, so that politics becomes increasingly the mere exchange of abuse. It makes me wonder whether democracy can possibly survive without serious debate. I think the problem is greatest in the USA, however, because the people who have become the followers of Trump seem, like earlier anti-democratic movements, simply uninterested in even appearing rational (which is why I keep calling them 'fascist' or 'nazi'), and they seem to have pushed aside the serious believers in capitalism and conservative values, who used to be able to make some sort of case for what they thought. It is all very well just shouting back - my Wife says I am unbelievably calm and placid when I can work off my negative feelings on barely-literate and pointlessly-aggressive trumpers - but I seriously begin to wonder if the human race can survive not only pandemics and world-overheating but this turn to savagery. It's not quite as bad over here, but America is the current centre of world capitalism, and where it goes others tend to follow. Does anyone see any way, other than Civil War, that we can get back to the compromise we used to manage, or is it going to be a matter or revolution or death? I'm thinking more of my own family than about an abstract Humanity, obviously, but aren't we all?

Lol, I see, so it's US who are unreasonable. What makes you think it's not you? I think this very post demonstrates quite well it is YOU who is unreasonable and intolerant.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I remember when I was learning to drive, I asked my dad how far ahead he looked, he said "As far as I can see".

When one looks back at history I say the same thing, look as far as you can see.

Note: I appreciate your civil and educated post.

Agreed on "As far as I can see". The longer the view, the deeper the perspective. The graphs below, taken in perspective, prove the world is doing much, much better in at least one area than is generally given.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Agreed on "As far as I can see". The longer the view, the deeper the perspective. The graphs below, taken in perspective, prove the world is doing much, much better in at least one area than is generally given.

But the people suck now, so many are deeply spiritually and morally broken, the quality of the lives degrade just as the quality of the people degrades.


I am at least taking a break, as I need to walk The Hound.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

But the people suck now, so many are deeply spiritually and morally broken, the quality of the lives degrade just as the quality of the people degrades.


I am at least taking a break, as I need to walk The Hound.

My advice there is the same as to the woman who has a long list of sad, broken relationships: "Have you considered hanging around different people?"

I live in a rural area on two acres surrounded by others with 2-5 acres. A doggie door and a large fenced in backyard.
Yeah, I'm bragging that I haven't walked a dog at home for 22 years.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Thanks for posting an interesting observation even though I disagree with some parts. First, a quick review of the European Colonial Era up through all those exciting changes in Germany circa 1930s prove none of this crap began with the United States. At worst, we imported it from our Euro brethren.

Second, the US is obviously the 400 lb gorilla in the room so, even though the US may be on par with other nations in terms of assholishness, it's felt more around the world because of our national powers.

Lastlyl, yes, democracy can survive, but as the US found out in Iraq, a "US-version of Democracy" doesn't easily transfer to other cultures. In the end, some form of Democratic Socialization will exist along with a global coalition government, but a lot of stuff has to happen to get there. Mainly technological, but also social. IMHO, a lot of the social stuff will follow the technology. I like to use the Star Trek analogy because Gene Roddenberry was pretty far sighted when it came to things like tech and society. A lot of the tech in his 1960s show exists now: communicators=cellphones, hospital beds which can read vitals, doors that automatically open and close, talking computers, etc. What we don't have yet but are essential to a "Star Trek" form of Democratic Socialism is both a "replicator"= 3D printer and fusion power. I think most of us will live to see the latter two but won't live long enough to see the "Star Trek" form of global society come into existence.

The point is that Europe experienced the fascist boot on its face, and saw it utterly defeated, except where it was kept artificially alive in Spain. Only the dimmest minority of nutters could actually conceive of it as a choice. It was very, very dead.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The point is that Europe experienced the fascist boot on its face, and saw it utterly defeated, except where it was kept artificially alive in Spain. Only the dimmest minority of nutters could actually conceive of it as a choice. It was very, very dead.

Yet totalitarian socialism existed for over 70 years and, in China and the DPRK, still exists. Maybe we should have nuked the Soviets when we had the chance, eh?