President Trump’s plan to replace income tax with tariff revenue is ‘absolutely’ a possibility according to National Economic Council Director

Althea said:
It's no secret that the middle class consumes much more than the upper class.
Click to expand...

To answer this, let’s break it down logically and economically. The "middle class" and "upper class" aren’t precisely defined in casual usage, but we can use common frameworks like income or wealth percentiles to approximate. The middle class is often considered households earning roughly between the 40th and 80th percentiles of income (say, $50,000 to $150,000 annually, depending on location and family size), while the upper class might be the top 10% or 1% (starting around $200,000+ or much higher for the ultra-wealthy). Consumption, meanwhile, refers to total spending on goods and services—food, housing, cars, entertainment, etc.

In absolute terms, the middle class as a group consumes more than the upper class in America simply because there are far more of them. The middle class makes up roughly 50-60% of the population (depending on the definition), while the upper class is a smaller slice—maybe 10% or less. Even if an upper-class household spends two or three times more per year than a middle-class one, the sheer number of middle-class consumers means their aggregate spending dominates. For example, if 50 million middle-class households spend $80,000 each on average ($4 trillion total), and 5 million upper-class households spend $250,000 each ($1.25 trillion total), the middle class still outpaces the upper class in raw consumption.

Per person or per household, though, it flips. Upper-class individuals and families tend to have higher discretionary income after essentials, so they spend more on luxury goods, travel, investments (which can indirectly fuel consumption), and high-end services. Data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Consumer Expenditure Survey backs this: in 2022, the top 20% of earners spent about $120,000 per household annually, while the middle quintiles hovered around $60,000-$70,000. The wealthy also save and invest more, meaning their consumption doesn’t scale linearly with income—they’re not buying ten times more groceries or cars—but they do splurge on things like private jets or vacation homes that skew their per-capita spending higher.

There’s also a nuance: the middle class often spends a larger share of their income on necessities (housing, healthcare, education), leaving less for savings, while the upper class can allocate more to non-essentials or wealth-building. So, in terms of economic impact, middle-class consumption drives everyday markets (think Walmart or Ford), while upper-class spending fuels niche, high-end sectors (think Rolex or Tesla).
If you mean "much more" in total volume, yes, the middle class wins due to numbers. If you mean per person, no—the upper class outspends them. Which angle are you thinking about?

@Grok

Althea said:
Once again, the middle class pays all of the taxes.
Click to expand...

No, the middle class does not pay all of the taxes in America, but they do contribute a significant share depending on how you define "middle class" and which taxes you’re looking at. Let’s unpack this.

If we’re talking federal income taxes, the burden leans heavily toward higher earners. According to the latest IRS data (2020, the most recent detailed breakdown), the top 10% of income earners—those making roughly $169,000 or more—paid about 74% of all federal income taxes. The top 1% alone, earning $548,000+, covered 42%. Meanwhile, the bottom 50%—roughly those under $46,000—paid just 2.3%. The "middle class" isn’t a precise IRS category, but if we approximate it as the middle 40% of earners (say, $50,000 to $150,000 household income), their share is substantial but not dominant—somewhere around 20-25%, based on quintile data from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO).

Zoom out to all federal taxes—income, payroll, corporate, excise—and the picture shifts. Payroll taxes (Social Security and Medicare) hit middle- and lower-income workers harder because they’re capped (in 2025, Social Security tax applies only up to $168,600). The CBO’s 2019 analysis (latest comprehensive year) shows the middle quintile—households earning about $50,000 to $90,000—paid an average effective tax rate of 13%, while the top 1% paid 30%. Total federal tax contributions? The top 20% still paid 69%, but the middle 20% chipped in about 15-20% of the pot.

Now, add state and local taxes—sales, property, income—and the middle class’s load grows. The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) estimates that in 2024, the middle 20% (around $45,000-$80,000) paid 9.9% of their income in state and local taxes, compared to 7.4% for the top 1%. These taxes are less progressive, so the middle class feels them more relative to their income. Combining everything, ITEP says the middle fifth pays about 26% of their income in total taxes, while the top 1% pays 33%. But in raw dollars, the wealthy still dominate because their incomes are so much higher.

So, does the middle class pay "all" taxes? No. The top earners foot most of the federal bill, especially income tax. But the middle class—however you slice it—carries a hefty chunk, especially when you factor in payroll and state/local taxes, which don’t scale as steeply with income. They’re not the whole show, but they’re a big player. Want me to dig deeper into a specific tax type or income range?


@Grok
 
Diogenes said:
To answer this, let’s break it down logically and economically. The "middle class" and "upper class" aren’t precisely defined in casual usage, but we can use common frameworks like income or wealth percentiles to approximate. The middle class is often considered households earning roughly between the 40th and 80th percentiles of income (say, $50,000 to $150,000 annually, depending on location and family size), while the upper class might be the top 10% or 1% (starting around $200,000+ or much higher for the ultra-wealthy). Consumption, meanwhile, refers to total spending on goods and services—food, housing, cars, entertainment, etc.

In absolute terms, the middle class as a group consumes more than the upper class in America simply because there are far more of them. The middle class makes up roughly 50-60% of the population (depending on the definition), while the upper class is a smaller slice—maybe 10% or less. Even if an upper-class household spends two or three times more per year than a middle-class one, the sheer number of middle-class consumers means their aggregate spending dominates. For example, if 50 million middle-class households spend $80,000 each on average ($4 trillion total), and 5 million upper-class households spend $250,000 each ($1.25 trillion total), the middle class still outpaces the upper class in raw consumption.

Per person or per household, though, it flips. Upper-class individuals and families tend to have higher discretionary income after essentials, so they spend more on luxury goods, travel, investments (which can indirectly fuel consumption), and high-end services. Data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Consumer Expenditure Survey backs this: in 2022, the top 20% of earners spent about $120,000 per household annually, while the middle quintiles hovered around $60,000-$70,000. The wealthy also save and invest more, meaning their consumption doesn’t scale linearly with income—they’re not buying ten times more groceries or cars—but they do splurge on things like private jets or vacation homes that skew their per-capita spending higher.

There’s also a nuance: the middle class often spends a larger share of their income on necessities (housing, healthcare, education), leaving less for savings, while the upper class can allocate more to non-essentials or wealth-building. So, in terms of economic impact, middle-class consumption drives everyday markets (think Walmart or Ford), while upper-class spending fuels niche, high-end sectors (think Rolex or Tesla).
If you mean "much more" in total volume, yes, the middle class wins due to numbers. If you mean per person, no—the upper class outspends them. Which angle are you thinking about?

@Grok



No, the middle class does not pay all of the taxes in America, but they do contribute a significant share depending on how you define "middle class" and which taxes you’re looking at. Let’s unpack this.

If we’re talking federal income taxes, the burden leans heavily toward higher earners. According to the latest IRS data (2020, the most recent detailed breakdown), the top 10% of income earners—those making roughly $169,000 or more—paid about 74% of all federal income taxes. The top 1% alone, earning $548,000+, covered 42%. Meanwhile, the bottom 50%—roughly those under $46,000—paid just 2.3%. The "middle class" isn’t a precise IRS category, but if we approximate it as the middle 40% of earners (say, $50,000 to $150,000 household income), their share is substantial but not dominant—somewhere around 20-25%, based on quintile data from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO).

Zoom out to all federal taxes—income, payroll, corporate, excise—and the picture shifts. Payroll taxes (Social Security and Medicare) hit middle- and lower-income workers harder because they’re capped (in 2025, Social Security tax applies only up to $168,600). The CBO’s 2019 analysis (latest comprehensive year) shows the middle quintile—households earning about $50,000 to $90,000—paid an average effective tax rate of 13%, while the top 1% paid 30%. Total federal tax contributions? The top 20% still paid 69%, but the middle 20% chipped in about 15-20% of the pot.

Now, add state and local taxes—sales, property, income—and the middle class’s load grows. The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) estimates that in 2024, the middle 20% (around $45,000-$80,000) paid 9.9% of their income in state and local taxes, compared to 7.4% for the top 1%. These taxes are less progressive, so the middle class feels them more relative to their income. Combining everything, ITEP says the middle fifth pays about 26% of their income in total taxes, while the top 1% pays 33%. But in raw dollars, the wealthy still dominate because their incomes are so much higher.

So, does the middle class pay "all" taxes? No. The top earners foot most of the federal bill, especially income tax. But the middle class—however you slice it—carries a hefty chunk, especially when you factor in payroll and state/local taxes, which don’t scale as steeply with income. They’re not the whole show, but they’re a big player. Want me to dig deeper into a specific tax type or income range?


@Grok
Click to expand...
Oops. Grok doesn't seem to be very good with numbers. The latest IRS data is from 2022.

SOI tax stats - Individual statistical tables by size of adjusted gross income | Internal Revenue Service

Individual Tax Statistics - Data by Size of Income.
www.irs.gov www.irs.gov
 
Diogenes said:
iu



​
Poor Anchovies.
Click to expand...
Wrong, the guy was appointed by Trump, fact, stop wasting everyone’s time
 
The thing is that the tax code is extremely corrupt and it would be very difficult to clean up....going to tariffs as a replacement does have its advantages.
 
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