Protectionists and immigration fearmongers steal jobs

You're trying to destroy the collectives which protect them, making them defacto members of a larger collective which does not have their interests at heart.

Every human is human. You can create subgroups and collecctives all you like but that does not change this reality.

I have no desire to destroy any collective that individuals freely choose. But I do not acknowledge their right use force against others. No one chooses where they are born and you have no right to restrict my movements based upon this.

But even if I did wish to destroy all other collectives, I could not make any humans human. I can't because they already are human!

You have presented the stupidest argument I have ever heard.

Competition drives prices up, glut drives prices down. The point is citizens must compete as equals in this arena. Non-citizens are not protected in the same way citizens are. Again, see CITIZEN in your local dictionary.

NON RESPONSIVE. If your premise is correct then other citizens are impoverishing their fellow citizens. The economic impacts are not changed by nationality. I can just as easily draw a distinction based on color of your hair and then argue that all those with a certain hair color should be excluded because of their negative economic impacts. You should be arguing for zero population growth with your dumbass idea here.

But you are wrong. Trade increases wealth and produces vast economic benefits.

The government is not the source of your rights.
 
You claim to be a programmer. Without other economic actors to trade this service with, your job would be useless. You'd have to hunt or farm to aquire the resources needed to survive and you would be incredibly poorer. Other economic actors enrich you.
 
Every human is human. You can create subgroups and collecctives all you like but that does not change this reality.
The reality of humans is they create subgroups according how they feel those groups will effect their survival.
I have no desire to destroy any collective that individuals freely choose.
We are not given a chance to choose these, in reality. Some we can. Some we cannot. What is dishonest and abusive is to change the terms of the collective midstream, despite promises which have been made.
But I do not acknowledge their right use force against others. No one chooses where they are born and you have no right to restrict my movements based upon this.
All governments of the world feel differently. It wouldn't be as bad if arrangements were reciprocal. Try hanging out in mexico as an illegal and try to make it. see what happens.
But even if I did wish to destroy all other collectives, I could not make any humans human. I can't because they already are human!
And humans create collectives by nature. We're a social species. You have no right to deligitimize them because it benefits you personally, as a fascist fellow citizen hater.
You have presented the stupidest argument I have ever heard.
Actually, they're insightful and compelling. It's quite rare to encounter an individual such as myself who can destroy the brainwashing concepts being foisted on us from all directions. You should feel lucky to read my genius.
NON RESPONSIVE. If your premise is correct then other citizens are impoverishing their fellow citizens.
Competing, yes. We must tolerate fellow citizens. We don't have to tolerate illegals. hence the concept of deportation and borders.
The economic impacts are not changed by nationality.
But they could be if we enforced our laws.
I can just as easily draw a distinction based on color of your hair and then argue that all those with a certain hair color should be excluded because of their negative economic impacts.
You could but it would be a hard sell. Most are sold on the concept of citizenship, it as seen a reward for obeying the laws and paying taxes.
You should be arguing for zero population growth with your dumbass idea here.
I'm against the population control agenda, as is Sir Ron Paul.
But you are wrong. Trade increases wealth and produces vast economic benefits.
Unless YOU'RE the one getting laid off to boost profits.
The government is not the source of your rights.

For all intents and purposes, yet it is.
 
You claim to be a programmer. Without other economic actors to trade this service with, your job would be useless. You'd have to hunt or farm to aquire the resources needed to survive and you would be incredibly poorer. Other economic actors enrich you.

That's better than being a ward of the state after Im told I can't be a programmer because they have some slaves doing it somewhere else.
 
The reality of humans is they create subgroups according how they feel those groups will effect their survival.

And that somehow makes them non human?

We are not given a chance to choose these, in reality. Some we can. Some we cannot. What is dishonest and abusive is to change the terms of the collective midstream, despite promises which have been made.

What promises were made to you prior to your birth? You are talking nonsense here. You did not agree to be born here and no one owes you a damn thing because you were.

What promises were made you since birth? Where is this promise of excluding immigrants listed?


Competing, yes. We must tolerate fellow citizens. We don't have to tolerate illegals. hence the concept of deportation and borders.

Other economic actors do not make you poorer moron. You'd be living in a cave chasing game for a living if it were not for you fellow man.

Why do we have to tolerate fellow citizens? You have been completely unresponsive on this and do nothing but dodge and evade. The word citizen is not magical.

You could but it would be a hard sell. Most are sold on the concept of citizenship, it as seen a reward for obeying the laws and paying taxes.

Irrelevant to whether the premise is valid and completely non responsive.

I'm against the population control agenda, as is Sir Ron Paul.

Ron Paul is not an idiot that thinks every new person impoverishes him, but you are.

Unless YOU'RE the one getting laid off to boost profits.

I would have no job to be laid off from without trade. Geezez, you are fucking stupid.
 
That's better than being a ward of the state after Im told I can't be a programmer because they have some slaves doing it somewhere else.

Evasive and non responsive. I suggest you go find an uninhabited area, taking nothing with you and see how wealthy you become in your chosen profession as a programmer.

Of course you will have to invent the computer, coding tools, electricity, etc.
 
Evasive and non responsive. I suggest you go find an uninhabited area, taking nothing with you and see how wealthy you become in your chosen profession as a programmer.

Of course you will have to invent the computer, coding tools, electricity, etc.

It's not evasive or nonresponsive. I said it's better than being a ward of the state after I've been told slaves will do my job from now on. Dependancy is death, especially in a state controlled by nihilist population control freaks.
 
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It is non responsive and evasive. Instead of acknolwedging that trade and commerce with other economic actors enriches you, you throw out some ridiculous conspiracy laden false dichotomy.

There is no reason why trade with others is going to lead to slavery or you becoming a ward of the state (which is what you have been arguing for any way).
 
It is non responsive and evasive. Instead of acknolwedging that trade and commerce with other economic actors enriches you, you throw out some ridiculous conspiracy laden false dichotomy.

There is no reason why trade with others is going to lead to slavery or you becoming a ward of the state (which is what you have been arguing for any way).

how do free people compete with slaves?

And I have not been arguing to become a ward of the state. I'm asking that the state uphold it's end of the bargain and enforce our borders. Get a clue, ignoramous.
 
What jobs are us poor white americans not getting? Fuck sake man the unemployment rate is below 5%. In a regulated economy that is FULL EMPLOYMENT. That is a 5% unemployment rate with 20 million or so illegals here. What job did you lose this last year to an immigrant illegal or otherwise? NONE that what. You cry cause you don't like brown people and brown people here in the US illegally you hate even more. You try to pretend you are not a racist but then you make the "gold tooth" comment. You are a white supremist and things you say bear that out all the time. You think there is something wrong when a person says one human life is no more valuable than another. When called on your racism you never adress it you just bring up AA like it is on par with lynchings and Jim Crow. There has NEVER been the organized systematic racism against the white race that this country has inflicted on brown people for the last 300 years. IT is still not over. Drug prosecutions with sentences that are far harsher on blacks than whites have existed until this very day with the difference between punishment for crack and powder cocaine. two forms of the same chemical substance. But the punishment for the posession or distribution of the type that is more prevelent in black neighborhoods is 500 times that of the type for that used and distributed by whites. Quit yer fuckin whining you cry baby SOB. If you are a white man in america you are a member of the most privledged group of people on the planet.
 
how do free people compete with slaves?

You are attempting to change the subject. This has nothing at all to do with the discussion.

Trade and commerce with others enriches you. Either acknowledge that or offer some argument to the contrary.

And I have not been arguing to become a ward of the state. I'm asking that the state uphold it's end of the bargain and enforce our borders. Get a clue, ignoramous.

You most certainly have. You claim the state enables your life and is the source of your rights. You are a bigger collectivist than most of the lefties on board.

And again, what the fuck bargain are you talking about? Where was I when this so called bargain was made? Where is it documented?
 
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You are attempting to change the subject. This has nothing at all to do with the discussion.

I'm not changing the subeject. This is the subject you queef.
Trade and commerce with others enriches you. Either acknowledge that or offer some argument to the contrary.
I'm not against all trade, jackass, I'm against trade practices which put americans out of work. Unemployment is not enrichment.
You most certainly have.
I most certainly have not. Expecting borders to be enforced and reasonable and long term beneficial trade policy is not "being a ward of the state".
You claim the state enables your life
My grandparents might have been killed by japs or germans had it not been for the state.

and is the source of your rights.
The formative document of our nation, the constitution, is the source of my rights and yours.
You are a bigger collectivist than most of the lefties on board.
Nope. they are. They want to discredit collectives which are beneficial to the citizens of the nations, namely, the nation itself.
And again, what the fuck bargain are you talking about? Where was I when this so called bargain was made? Where is it documented?

I was a citizen from birth, with rights and responsibilties. I have a right to a protected border, as do you. Unless you really think border enforcement is not a duty of government.

You're an intellectual stillborn. Seriously. You said you were done with this. Why are you going back to all the shit we covered. You've been ko'd. Stay down. You look foolish at this point.
 
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What jobs are us poor white americans not getting? Fuck sake man the unemployment rate is below 5%. In a regulated economy that is FULL EMPLOYMENT. That is a 5% unemployment rate with 20 million or so illegals here. What job did you lose this last year to an immigrant illegal or otherwise? NONE that what. You cry cause you don't like brown people and brown people here in the US illegally you hate even more. You try to pretend you are not a racist but then you make the "gold tooth" comment. You are a white supremist and things you say bear that out all the time. You think there is something wrong when a person says one human life is no more valuable than another. When called on your racism you never adress it you just bring up AA like it is on par with lynchings and Jim Crow. There has NEVER been the organized systematic racism against the white race that this country has inflicted on brown people for the last 300 years. IT is still not over. Drug prosecutions with sentences that are far harsher on blacks than whites have existed until this very day with the difference between punishment for crack and powder cocaine. two forms of the same chemical substance. But the punishment for the posession or distribution of the type that is more prevelent in black neighborhoods is 500 times that of the type for that used and distributed by whites. Quit yer fuckin whining you cry baby SOB. If you are a white man in america you are a member of the most privledged group of people on the planet.

These issues effect all americans. Not just white people.

I only bring up the gold tooth comment to ignorant vile bitches who promote racial discrimination. Go jump in a lake. I've beaten your ass all over the board on this issue. SKEWERED was the word beefy used. So sit down and stfu.
 
Check it out turdburgers.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersd1fb
Immigration and Job Displacement

One of the overlooked ways in which immigration harms the American workforce is displacement, that is, when natives lose their jobs to recent immigrants who will work for substandard wages.

Sometimes the employer intentionally replaces natives with immigrants to have a cheaper, more easily exploited workforce. Sometimes the displacement comes through an intermediary. In these cases, work may be delegated out to subcontractors. The firms that use immigrants - and pay them low wages - underbid other subcontractors that use natives. In some cases, the ultimate employer may not even be aware that native workers have been displaced. Regardless, the effects on Americans are real. As the Immigration and Naturalization Service put it: "The critical potential negative impacts of immigrants are displacement of incumbent worker groups from their jobs and wage depression for those who remain in the affected sectors."1

The web of complex interactions among factory openings and closings, choice of production methods, ethnic networking in hiring, and labor subcontracting make it difficult to prove iron-clad cases of displacement. Yet such evidence does exist.

One well-documented case of displacement happened in the tomato industry in the 1980s. A group of unionized legal border crossers picked the tomato crop for many years in San Diego County and were making $4.00 an hour in 1980. In the 1980s, growers switched to a crew of illegal aliens and lowered the wage to $3.35. Almost all the veteran workers who were unwilling to work at the reduced rate disappeared from the tomato fields.2

Sometimes, recent immigrants themselves are the victims of displacement. In the raisin grape industry of California, Mestizos (the Spanish-speaking population of Mexico) were laid off and replaced with lower cost Mixtecs (the indigenous people of Mexico). According to a study of the industry, the Mixtecs "have driven the Mestizos out of the market."3

Agriculture has many other instances of employers' switching to immigrant workers (legal and illegal) to increase their profits. For example, Hispanic migrants have displaced native black workers in the Georgia peach industry,4 and migrants have replaced natives and previous immigrants in the cucumber and apple industries in Michigan.5 The melon industry slashed its mechanized packing houses in favor of manual packing in the field, eliminating unionized crews of mostly native workers and assigning their work to lower paid Mexican field crews.6

In the furniture industry, competition from immigrant-laden plants in Southern California closed all the unionized plants in the San Francisco area and removed natives from the workforce in favor of underpaid aliens.7

In the last 20 years, the meatpacking industry has completely reorganized around the use of immigrant rather than native labor. IBP, the nation's leading meatpacking company, now recruits workers from Mexico and directly along the border. As a result, the proportion of the labor force protected by union contracts and the share of natives in meat processing has dropped dramatically.8

Unions fall before the weight of imported labor. In the Mission Foods tortilla factory strike, management lowered wages by 40 percent, and when the native labor went on strike, the Mexican managers intentionally brought in newly immigrated strikebreakers to replaced them. Some of the natives returned to work at the reduced wages but most left.9

Similar phenomena have swept over the hotel industry as well, with immigrant workers displacing native black workers en masse.10 In Los Angeles, unionized black janitors had been earning $12 an hour, with benefits. But with the advent of subcontractors who compose roaming crews of Mexican and El Salvadoran laborers, the pay dropped to the then minimum wage of $3.35 an hour. Within two years, the unionized crews had all been displaced by the foreign ones, and without any other skills, most of the native workforce did not find new work.11

Andrew Sum, director of the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University in Boston, says 56 percent of the rise in U.S. employment from 2000 to 2005 can be attributed to undocumented immigrants. In the same period, he says jobs disappeared for U.S.-born adults aged 16 to 24 and African-Americans without college degrees. “The greater the influx of illegal immigrants into any state, the greater the employment loss among people under the age of 35, particularly men without college degrees.” 12

Many politicians and some citizens do not concern themselves with such displacement since it affects primarily low-skilled Americans, who tend to lack political clout. As a result, immigration has been responsible for 40 to 50 percent of the wage depression for workers without a high school degree in recent decades.13 In an article on the effects of illegal immigration in North Carolina that claimed that it is not proven that illegal workers hurt job opportunities for American workers, data from the state's Employment Security Commission were reported that show lagging wage increases in industries known to hire many illegal workers, i.e., construction, cleaning and maintenance, and food preparation. “While the average hourly wage increased 97 cents for all triad workers, from $15.69 to $16.66 during the past 30 months, it rose in high-immigrant occupations as little as 3 cents in food preparation to as much as 83 cents in cleaning and maintenance.”14 Some estimates indicate that nearly two million Americans a year are displaced by immigration.15

Americans deserve decent jobs at decent wages, not unfair competition from imported foreign workers who are exploited to the point of indentured servitude. We need immigration reform to stop the massive influx of foreign workers from harming the living standard of our most vulnerable citizens.
 
I'm not changing the subeject. This is the subject you queef.
I'm not against all trade, jackass, I'm against trade practices which put americans out of work. Unemployment is not enrichment.

You do this all the time... You try and bounce around on tangents until you can change the subject.

No, "slavery" has absolutely nothing to do with immigration or anything we have been talking about.

You argue that others drive housing costs up and wages down and that this is a valid reason to restrict immigration. I have pointed out that you would then be impoverished by any growth in population and you in fact stated that citizens impoverish each other through trade. That's not an argument against a specific economic practice. It's an argument against trade entirely.

I most certainly have not. Expecting borders to be enforced and reasonable and long term beneficial trade policy is not "being a ward of the state".

You did. You said the state enables your life and is the source rights and you are arguing that now.

My grandparents might have been killed by japs or germans had it not been for the state.

Not likely, since it was the states of Germany and Japan warring with the USA. War is made by states.

Somewhere along the line, some of your grandparents immigrated to this country.

The formative document of our nation, the constitution, is the source of my rights and yours.

No, it is not and it even states that in the Constitution (see 9th amendment)
and the D of I.

Nope. they are. They want to discredit collectives which are beneficial to the citizens of the nations, namely, the nation itself.

Oh so since you are more supportive of collectivism that proves you are less of a collectivist? You are fucking retarded.

I was a citizen from birth, with rights and responsibilties. I have a right to a protected border, as do you. Unless you really think border enforcement is not a duty of government.

How the fuck does that answer the question?

Where is that right in the Constitution, which you claim is the source of your rights? Again, where is this bargain? I never agreed to pay taxes in exchange for keeping out foreigners. Only a dumbass would agree to that "bargain."

You're an intellectual stillborn. Seriously. You said you were done with this. Why are you going back to all the shit we covered. You've been ko'd. Stay down. You look foolish at this point.

With such bits as you are less of a collectivists than the left because you are more supportive of the nation collective and claiming that I want to force humans to join the human race you are beating yourself up and down. I need do nothing but point and laugh.
 
You do this all the time... You try and bounce around on tangents until you can change the subject.

No, "slavery" has absolutely nothing to do with immigration or anything we have been talking about.

Not at all shitstick. The thread was intially about protectionism and immigration. We should PROTECT our citizens from competition with slaves.


You argue that others drive housing costs up and wages down and that this is a valid reason to restrict immigration. I have pointed out that you would then be impoverished by any growth in population and you in fact stated that citizens impoverish each other through trade. That's not an argument against a specific economic practice. It's an argument against trade entirely.

No.
I said we must tolerate competition with other citizens. Our immigration and trade policies protect us from the effects of overseas slavery and too much immigration. You're just wrong as shit.
You did. You said the state enables your life and is the source rights and you are arguing that now.
It has protected me and my ancestors and does regulate my rights. Trying barging into the courthouse with an uzi and an explanation that your rights come from god and see how far you get.
Not likely, since it was the states of Germany and Japan warring with the USA. War is made by states.

Somewhere along the line, some of your grandparents immigrated to this country.
But, had the state failed to protect us from german or japanes invasion, my grandparents may have been killed. Please think, for once.

My people were here long before we were a country. Shenandoah Valley,WV.


No, it is not and it even states that in the Constitution (see 9th amendment)
and the D of I.
That's the supporting argument in the document. The GOD argument. But it's only because the document has been supported by men (the state) that it has authority.
Oh so since you are more supportive of collectivism that proves you are less of a collectivist? You are fucking retarded.
they support a bigger collective, even more removed from our own personal well being. They support a bigger collective, therefore they are bigger collectivists.
How the fuck does that answer the question?




Where is that right in the Constitution, which you claim is the source of your rights? Again, where is this bargain? I never agreed to pay taxes in exchange for keeping out foreigners. Only a dumbass would agree to that "bargain."
Look, tard. We actually have immigration and border enforcement laws, and it is the duty of the state to enforce those. It is my right as a citizen to expect the government to enforce it's own laws.
With such bits as you are less of a collectivists than the left because you are more supportive of the nation collective and claiming that I want to force humans to join the human race you are beating yourself up and down. I need do nothing but point and laugh.

Humans are a social species, and we form alliances to enhance our survival. A nation is one of those alliances. When the people charged with leading the collective use their authority for their own benefit instead of the benefit of the collective, they are negligent in their duty.

Get a brain, please.
 
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Not at all shitstick. The thread was intially about protectionism and immigration. We should PROTECT our citizens from competition with slaves.

The discussion has been about immigration. You have been getting your butt kicked around the issue that trade and commerce enrich you rather than impoverishing you (as you claimed) and are attempting to change the subject with some nonsensical rant about slavery.

No.
I said we must tolerate competition with other citizens.

We should tolerate the trade and commerce that you claim impoverishes us? Why?

You are clearly wrong that trade impoverishes us and you are attempting to evade this point by arguing that it's ok with our fellow citizens. But you don't offer any reason why. I mean there is not even any argument for your position. It's quite retarded.


It has protected me and my ancestors and does regulate my rights. Trying barging into the courthouse with an uzi and an explanation that your rights come from god and see how far you get.

LOL, wtf do you think this establishes?

My people were here long before we were a country. Shenandoah Valley,WV.

Yeah, thats what all racists claim. But I don't see how that changes anything. They still immigrated.

they support a bigger collective, even more removed from our own personal well being. They support a bigger collective, therefore they are bigger collectivists.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they argue that people are all humans. This "collective" does not exists because someone drew a line. This is reality and whether one supports it or not does not change it.

Look, tard. We actually have immigration and border enforcement laws, and it is the duty of the state to enforce those. It is my right as a citizen to expect the government to enforce it's own laws.

You are trying to weasel out. Yes, we have laws. Nobody is arguing we don't retard. Discussion is whether they should be changed and you claimed there was some bargain that this change would somehow violate.

Don't be a pussy your whole life. If you can't support your assertion admit it and move on instead of trying to weasel out of it or change the subject with some delusional rant.

Humans are a social species, and we form alliances to enhance our survival. blah blah collectivist bs

I don't see why since according to you trade and commerce with others impoverishes us.
 
The discussion has been about immigration.
You have been getting your butt kicked around the issue that trade and commerce enrich you rather than impoverishing you (as you claimed) and are attempting to change the subject with some nonsensical rant about slavery.
I've been kicking your but on the immigration issue as well. Did your read that article about americans being displaced?
Tell me what you didn't understand about the slavery issue. It has to do with trade as well.
We should tolerate the trade and commerce that you claim impoverishes us? Why?
This is in reference to competition for jobs and resources with OTHER CITIZENS. We must tolerate other citizens. Non citizens are in a differenct category, as per the very significance of the concepts of borders, states, and citizens. It's like you've gone retarded.
You are clearly wrong that trade impoverishes us and you are attempting to evade this point by arguing that it's ok with our fellow citizens. But you don't offer any reason why. I mean there is not even any argument for your position. It's quite retarded.
Trade with slaves and those willing to work as slaves impoverishes us. If you care about mexicans, lobby mexico to change it's business climate. There is no reason why american workers must pay the price for incompetent statecraft to our south.
LOL, wtf do you think this establishes?
It establishes that the state has protected my family, and that the state has a more real effect over your rights than god does.
Yeah, thats what all racists claim. But I don't see how that changes anything. They still immigrated.
Legally.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they argue that people are all humans. This "collective" does not exists because someone drew a line. This is reality and whether one supports it or not does not change it.
The reality is that people form groups to enhance their survival. you're denying this truth in your zeal for absurdity.
You are trying to weasel out. Yes, we have laws. Nobody is arguing we don't retard. Discussion is whether they should be changed and you claimed there was some bargain that this change would somehow violate.
Which law have we discussed changing? You seem to be in some sort of denial about things as they are now. You don't believe in citizenship, nations, or borders. You need to brought up to speed before we can go forward, apparently.
Don't be a pussy your whole life. If you can't support your assertion admit it and move on instead of trying to weasel out of it or change the subject with some delusional rant.
What is delusional about anything I've said. you're the one in denial about basic concepts.


I don't see why since according to you trade and commerce with others impoverishes us.

"Humans are a social species, and we form alliances to enhance our survival. A nation is one of those alliances. When the people charged with leading the collective use their authority for their own benefit instead of the benefit of the collective, they are negligent in their duty."

Here's the full quote which was too damning for you to quote in it's entirety.

Only some trade is detrimental. Some is mutually beneficial. Im not against all trade. Im against stupid trade, and stupidity, which you possess in spades.
 
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