Public School A-F Grading System ... For The School

[cawacko]

Bullshit. That's a strawman and a false assumption on your part that their is no evaluation that there is no accountability for teachers.

Educators need to be protected, to some degree, from those with political, religious and social agendas, those who wish to undermine public education for their own selfish partisan reasons and the public pressures of irrational parents and neophytes who think they know more about the education profession than the professionals do.

One of the issues involved in education is getting the best people to dedicate themselves to the profession knowing that they are going to be demonized by political hacks and paid far less than they can make in the private sector while being blamed for the parenting failures of half the knuckle draggers in town. We need these protections for educators to help attract quality people into the profession.

I know from my own experience of flirting with an education career when I was offered a job as a high school biology teacher. Not only was I offered slightly more than half of what I was currently making but it's hinted strongly that I not teach biological evolution or more correctly that I do so in a cursory manner that would not upset religious parents. I flat out refused in the interview and expressed dismay that they would even consider not teaching one of the most important foundational concepts of the topic and that in regards to the public pressures were concerned that I didn't believe that it was the place of those who are uneducated in that field of science to dictate to those of us who are what ought to be taught in the classroom. This is a perfect example of why public school teachers need these kinds of protection.

The real fact is that only a minute handful of educators perform their jobs poorly and most of those don't keep their jobs for long and that those who try to exaggerate the issue and demonize public educators are those with a political and ideological agenda to undermine one of this nations greatest accomplisments. Universal Public Education.

The fact is, is that the vast majority of public school educators in our nations are unappreciated heros who make tremendous personal sacrifices to pursue a profession and vocation that they love and are passionate about.

You accuse others of having an agenda when you clearly have one yourself. You want a one size fits all education system that treats every kid the same. Not all kids are the same. They are unique and many learn in different ways which is why we have charter schools or schools that focus on the arts or schools like KIPP that operate in our urban areas. You said nothing about what is best for the kids. You spoke of only wanting what is best for the teachers and their union. Now I'm not saying or accusing you of not caring about kids because I know you do but your first concern isn't what's best for them, nor are many of the politicians. Just look at the new NYC mayor trying to close down the very successful charter schools in Harlem. Ideology over what's best for the kids.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Ok but what I was referring to was the government not having the ability to make a parent give a shit such as helping your kid with school work and being supportive and being involved. I think most would agree it's important a parent do all those things but we can't really force them to via legislation.

No...but you're assuming that the only tool government has to use is the blunt tool of coercion. There's more than one way to skin a cat Wacko.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

No. The cause of failing kids (for the most part) is the effect of failed parent(s). And to date that is the one unmentionable thing in the education conversation. Except for Bill Cosby. Even the president did his typical two step of acknowledge the problem but flat refuse to address it. But that was his handlers talking. Unions say throw more money down the toilet and expect a different result than all the other times its been tried.

Again, more nonsense to justify your bias towards teachers unions...or probably trade unions of any type. Show me one educator or one union member who believes that. Show me the citation and not some Fox news or right wing radio talking point.

 

[cawacko]

No...but you're assuming that the only tool government has to use is the blunt tool of coercion. There's more than one way to skin a cat Wacko.

I would hope it is more a societal thing and neighborhood thing that would encourage/push parents to want to get involved. But I'm not smart enough to know what the answer is. I know if parents are on drugs they probably aren't as involved in their kids lives. In single parent homes (and even two parent homes) the parent(s) work so much they are rarely around and aren't as involved. It's tough.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

You accuse others of having an agenda when you clearly have one yourself. You want a one size fits all education system that treats every kid the same. Not all kids are the same. They are unique and many learn in different ways which is why we have charter schools or schools that focus on the arts or schools like KIPP that operate in our urban areas. You said nothing about what is best for the kids. You spoke of only wanting what is best for the teachers and their union. Now I'm not saying or accusing you of not caring about kids because I know you do but your first concern isn't what's best for them, nor are many of the politicians. Just look at the new NYC mayor trying to close down the very successful charter schools in Harlem. Ideology over what's best for the kids.

You're completely wrong and your argument is a strawman. If Charter schools are being closed it's because the record is quite clear that the vast majority of them are failing at a far more spectacularly high rate than public schools are. It is those who are trying to undermine public education so as to advance their religious agenda or to have us, the taxpayers, subsidize their kids education that is denying much needed resources from our public education.

It's also asinine to state that by advocating for policies that find, retain and reward the most talented educators and protect them from the extremes of public politics that I'm placing teachers and THEIR EVIL DEMON UNIONS ahead of kids. That's a logical fallacy and an utterly false dichotomy that I completely reject. Recognizing that these professionals need these protections is not placing educators and THEIR EVIL DEMON UNIONS ahead of children. It is looking after the childrens interest by protecting their teachers, the vast majority of whom are quality professionals, from the extremes of public politics IS looking out for the interest of the kids otherwise we would end up with exactly what you're suggesting, one shoe fits all conformist, knowledge from authority, to hell with learning critical thinking skills one size fits all education. These protections are need so that these professionals can continue to do their jobs by the standards of their professions and not have to dance on the puppet strings or political opinion of a lay public that knows very little about the education profession.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I would hope it is more a societal thing and neighborhood thing that would encourage/push parents to want to get involved. But I'm not smart enough to know what the answer is. I know if parents are on drugs they probably aren't as involved in their kids lives. In single parent homes (and even two parent homes) the parent(s) work so much they are rarely around and aren't as involved. It's tough.

That's the depressing thing....man I don't know where to start either cause it does all start at home. How do you get poor apathetic parents engaged in their childs education? I think the first place to start is using peer pressure as a tool to get them motivated but I can also relate to the parents predicament...it's hard for working class people to put in a 10 or 12 hour work day, come home exhausted and get engaged in their childrens education.

 

[leaningright]

I've read cawacko and Mott hash things out and will only add that I am not against evaluations at all. I am not even against charter schools but I want the government to fund public ed. completely before diverting funds to them. I want to make sure that teachers are doing their jobs. We have one at our school right now who is not and it is next to impossible to get rid of her. It shouldn't be that way. But I also agree with Mott that the vast majority of teachers are good at what they do..but like gun owners, you only hear about the bad ones. But my main point of the OP is where their conversation ended up.

I would hope it is more a societal thing and neighborhood thing that would encourage/push parents to want to get involved. But I'm not smart enough to know what the answer is. I know if parents are on drugs they probably aren't as involved in their kids lives. In single parent homes (and even two parent homes) the parent(s) work so much they are rarely around and aren't as involved. It's tough.

That's the depressing thing....man I don't know where to start either cause it does all start at home. How do you get poor apathetic parents engaged in their childs education? I think the first place to start is using peer pressure as a tool to get them motivated but I can also relate to the parents predicament...it's hard for working class people to put in a 10 or 12 hour work day, come home exhausted and get engaged in their childrens education.

There is no easy answer to fixing the problem. I will say though that the vast majority of my involved parents also have jobs. That is not a coincidence. Their kids know the importance of being at school on time and of not missing because they have a hangnail. So, we have to do something to break the cycle. I've seen it happen on a few occasions in my 27 years but it doesn't happen without effort on the part of many people. The student has to buy into the fact that education will improve their life. The parent(s) or a significant family member has to be supportive to at least a small degree and the teacher has to not give up on the kid.

I'm telling you guys, I love teaching. I love seeing the lights go on when something soaks in. There's not many better feelings. But my heart breaks for these kids in these families who are so uninvolved and unsupportive. Maybe there is a post retirement job out there for me where I can help them somehow.

 

[cawacko]

I've read cawacko and Mott hash things out and will only add that I am not against evaluations at all. I am not even against charter schools but I want the government to fund public ed. completely before diverting funds to them. I want to make sure that teachers are doing their jobs. We have one at our school right now who is not and it is next to impossible to get rid of her. It shouldn't be that way. But I also agree with Mott that the vast majority of teachers are good at what they do..but like gun owners, you only hear about the bad ones. But my main point of the OP is where their conversation ended up.



There is no easy answer to fixing the problem. I will say though that the vast majority of my involved parents also have jobs. That is not a coincidence. Their kids know the importance of being at school on time and of not missing because they have a hangnail. So, we have to do something to break the cycle. I've seen it happen on a few occasions in my 27 years but it doesn't happen without effort on the part of many people. The student has to buy into the fact that education will improve their life. The parent(s) or a significant family member has to be supportive to at least a small degree and the teacher has to not give up on the kid.

I'm telling you guys, I love teaching. I love seeing the lights go on when something soaks in. There's not many better feelings. But my heart breaks for these kids in these families who are so uninvolved and unsupportive. Maybe there is a post retirement job out there for me where I can help them somehow.

lr, to your point about loving teaching are you familiar with the group Junior Achievement? They basically bring people from the business world and the workplace to volunteer teach at schools. I did it for five years and loved it. I taught in an economics class to Seniors at a low income high school. The joy I got was when kids would come up after class and questions which clearly showed they had been listening and were interested in what you had to say.

So I have a lot of respect for teachers. Not so much for the teachers union.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

Look at the history of public education. Do you think the poor and uneducated when "Whippee! Free School!" when it was first mandated? No, it wasn't known as "public education" for a long time. It was known as "compulsory education." and those who didn't permit their children to get educated or permitted their child's truancy was called to account by law. In other worlds you were (and still are) compelled by the government to educate your children. So government can and always has played a role in enforcing public education.

So....you suggest....what? Parental licensing?

 

[leaningright]

lr, to your point about loving teaching are you familiar with the group Junior Achievement? They basically bring people from the business world and the workplace to volunteer teach at schools. I did it for five years and loved it. I taught in an economics class to Seniors at a low income high school. The joy I got was when kids would come up after class and questions which clearly showed they had been listening and were interested in what you had to say.

So I have a lot of respect for teachers. Not so much for the teachers union.

We have similar organizations here like Beyond the Bell and VolunteerMatch. Both are involved in doing what you describe. And here is where people in my party and I will likely differ but I have a healthy disdain for my teacher's union as well...even though in OK they don't wield much power. Other than desiring that public education be fully funded before other efforts are supported, I am as politically at odds with the NEA and, by extension, OEA as I am with any other very liberal group. So I am a member of POE, a growing coalition of conservative teachers in OK.

I love having business people come into my classroom. It'd be cool to have someone like Mott come in and talk about how science provides his particular job. My cousin, a Nuclear Physicist, is scheduled to speak to me trig/calc kids later this year after state testing is concluded. Those are the fun and real times of teaching, when you can make a connection between what you teach and jobs in the real world. But I've gone off talking about high school. It's these grade school kids we have to help, IMO.

 

[leaningright]

So....you suggest....what? Parental licensing?

Why not?

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

Why not?

Why not indeed?

 

[Truth Detector]

I know better than to post things on a Sunday but it is thundering and sleeting outside and church services are cancelled for tonight so here I am. I will preface this with the fact that the school where I teach is received an A last year and does a decent job overall. But since the implementation of the A-F grading system in our state I have been concerned about the misconception a blanket grade would portray. When a school gets an F does that mean they aren't doing their job? Not necessarily. The following is the first in a series of articles that the Tulsa World is doing on an "F" school. I teach in a school that is well over 80% free and reduced lunch but cannot imagine the problems this poor school (and by extension, the poor teachers) faces every day.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/educ...0-a0a9-11e3-bb77-0017a43b2370.html?mode=story

"Every other Friday without fail, Judi Wilson, LaChelle Harris and Kenneth Stanley Sr. can be found at Hawthorne Elementary School selling sour pickles and fresh-popped popcorn to raise money for the PTA.
It’s a good thing they do, because they’re three of only five parents in the PTA at a school with 386 students. In December, teachers were the only ones who attended the monthly PTA meeting.

What grading system did they use in your state? So should everyone just get a "c" for effort and we'll call it a day?

As for your question about getting an "F"; I used to tell my kids that you have to go out of your way to get an "F". All that is required to get a "C" in High School is show up every day, dont disrupt the classroom, do all your homework and turn it in, and basically get 70% on all your tests. That isn't hard at all.

So if someone is getting an "F", they are doing so on purpose. They just don't care.

 

[Truth Detector]

I would hope it is more a societal thing and neighborhood thing that would encourage/push parents to want to get involved. But I'm not smart enough to know what the answer is. I know if parents are on drugs they probably aren't as involved in their kids lives. In single parent homes (and even two parent homes) the parent(s) work so much they are rarely around and aren't as involved. It's tough.

BINGO!!!

 

[Truth Detector]

That's the depressing thing....man I don't know where to start either cause it does all start at home. How do you get poor apathetic parents engaged in their childs education? I think the first place to start is using peer pressure as a tool to get them motivated but I can also relate to the parents predicament...it's hard for working class people to put in a 10 or 12 hour work day, come home exhausted and get engaged in their childrens education.

Maybe we should start by not making excuses for really bad behavior and pretending that the Nanny State can resolve societies failures? Perhaps we should not be legalizing drugs and promoting policies that create single parent homes? Maybe we can start by bringing religion back into the dialogue and teaching good morals?

Nah; that requires effort and hard work; it's so much easier to point fingers at everyone else and create a Nanny State funded on the backs of those who are responsible and work hard.

 

[The Dude]

Look at the history of public education. Do you think the poor and uneducated when "Whippee! Free School!" when it was first mandated? No, it wasn't known as "public education" for a long time. It was known as "compulsory education." and those who didn't permit their children to get educated or permitted their child's truancy was called to account by law. In other worlds you were (and still are) compelled by the government to educate your children. So government can and always has played a role in enforcing public education.

Trojan burn!