Raise The Minimum Wage!

Who has determined he has more than he needs? Him? If so, then, maybe. Ask him!

Allow me to clarify my question, then perhaps you will address it earnestly;

Is a dollar worth the same to one who has enough to pay his bills and some left over as to one who doesn't make enough to pay his bills and must choose whether to pay bills or buy food?

Let us look at the issue in another way;
If a household has a food bill of $300/week and an income of $3000/week,
is the money in the food budget worth as much as it is to a household which has the same food consumption ability
but an income of $240/week plus food stamps?

Surely you can see that $.50 has far more value to the minimum wage earner?




For the most part, money means the same thing to me as it does to you or to anyone else. I don't know about you, but I can never seem to "have enough" when it comes to the stuff... I don't know, I guess MAYBE someone could get there? I haven't ever. I will always take more money, if you have any. In fact, even if I didn't have room in my house, I would build an extra room to put the money in, if you want to get rid of any.

Your sarcasm aside, if one is living within one's means, then by definition one has "enough"
If one's entire earning power cannot purchase life's needed goods, then one does not have enough.




Well my proof is, there is no such thing as a magical money tree. The increase in money which will come with the paycheck, has to come from somewhere... and without magic money trees.... the ONLY place it CAN come, is from the consumer. There is no other possibility, unless you believe in the magic trees. You can make all kinds of stupid superficial arguments as to how MUCH it will effect prices of this or that, or overall... but the bottom line is simple economics... the money has to come from someplace, and it will ultimately come from consumers. Unless there is a magic money tree.

[Edit: Sorry I misread your comment, I thought you asked me to explain how it would increase prices.]



Most companies don't, and that's the whole point... it doesn't HELP very many people, when you raise it. It HURTS a whole lot of people, because it causes inflation in prices across the board and it eliminates possible jobs. The minimum wage is used as a 'bottom rung' as it were, a 'first step' into viable and gainful employment. It is through these lowly 'shit jobs' that inexperienced workers can 'prove themselves' by showing up for work, and conforming to some manner of company guidelines and standards. Once those are established and you have met that level, you generally advance onward, to bigger and better things in life. It is NEVER something that is intended to be a means of support or livelihood for anyone. If it is, they need more help than a fity-cent raise!

So it doesn't help many, since there are so few who receive it, yet it's impact is so vast that it hurts a great many?
Hmm, I don't see how it can be both ways. A very small raise to a very small group of people, yet it has vast effects?

As to the rest of your comments in the above paragraph, who decided what lowest rung jobs are for?
Regardless of what you have decided that minimum wage jobs are for, the FACT is that they are jobs. Those that have them depend upon then, often work them longterm, and clearly do not qualify to earn more money in any way, be it due to age, physical or mental or social stature, or simply lack of any higher paying jobs. Those that can advance do, it is not they who we are concerned with.



Yes, there are LOTS of similar situations. Some people are just above minimum wage... well, when the minimum wage is increased to what they are currently making, they are going to expect to still be valued above the minimum wage, are they not? Therefore, you have to increase their pay accordingly, otherwise... they are made into minimum wage workers again, and take a step backwards. Okay, ya following so far? So we go next to one of the other many similar situations, the guy or gal who's making just above the next level of pay... and suddenly, the level below them are now making just as much! Well, their value is still worth more than the level below, so they have a right to ask for a pay increase too! And this goes on up into management... and sometimes all the way up to the CEOs.

:facepalm:

Again... the problem is not solved. We have had this 'minimum wage' idea for how many years? And how many times have we increased it, supposedly, to help the poorest among us, to make things better for those who are struggling.... are we seeing any results from that? Are people somehow struggling less, after 40 years of trying to help by increasing the minimum cost of labor?

The "problem" (presumably poverty) will never be solved by one law.
The agony, the utter misery of some of the poorest of the working poor may be somewhat alleviated. That is the goal, and the only goal.

Now please, please show how the burden of an increased minimum wage has damaged the economy in the past.
 
cuban health care

During a tour Monday of scientific institutions in Cuba, the WHO deputy director said he was impressed by the nation's "well integrated" health care system at all levels.

Asamoa-Baah praised the fact that all Cubans have free access to high-quality, high-tech health services and applauded the country's ongoing campaigns to eradicate communicable diseases.

He also praised the work of Cuban health care workers in more than 32 countries and the medical training offered by Cuban universities to thousands of students from around the world.

The WHO experts expressed particular interest in Cuba's biotech industry, which has developed vaccines to fight cancer and other diseases, and Cuban medical products are marketed in over 40 countries.

The WHO delegation is scheduled to meet Thursday with Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez and tour the Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology in Havana.

On Friday, the group will attend the closing ceremony of the Congress of Geriatrics and Gerontology.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/health/2012-03/28/c_131493136.htm
Advanced
 
Let us look at the issue in another way;
If a household has a food bill of $300/week and an income of $3000/week,
is the money in the food budget worth as much as it is to a household which has the same food consumption ability
but an income of $240/week plus food stamps?

This is actually an interesting question Rune....Now I can hope that you are learning.

So let's take a look at it shall we?

Family (A) has a weekly gross income of $3,000. per week, and for the sake of even purposes has two children.

Now let's look at their bills.

1. tax liability - Combined between Federal, State, Property, Local they have an off the top liability of (being generous here) 45% that equals $1,350 per week off the top...That leaves a net spendable income to the household of $1,650.

2. They have to save for their own retirement at the rate of say 20% combined retirement and savings for emergencies that is another $330. bringing their income to $1,320

3. Using your number they spend $300 per week on groceries, now we are down to $1,020.

4. Mortgage for their socio economic range is around $650. per week that brings us to $370 left.

5. Utilities including cable, internet, cell phones etc. let's be generous and say $150. per week, that leaves $220.

6. They own two cars, one outright, and one on payments of let's say $100 per week. That now leaves $120. per week left over.

7. Now you're not done. They have kids, sports, extra activities, and gas, tolls, and other expenses it is more than likely that in some weeks there isn't enough left overfor our couple to even have $20 left for themselves for lunch during the week.

Now let's look at your couple on welfare.

1. Their housing is paid for
2. Their food is paid for
3. Their utilities are paid for
4. They get a stipend for spending
5. If they increase their family size their income from the State is increased.

Now, do they live the exact same lifestyles as the couple that works to earn their lifestyle? No.

Does the recipient class family deserve the funding they get? Some do yes. Some things are beyond their control..

Is it most likely that a strong majority of generational recipients could leave the rolls tomorrow if cut off? yes.
 
During a tour Monday of scientific institutions in Cuba, the WHO deputy director said he was impressed by the nation's "well integrated" health care system at all levels.

Asamoa-Baah praised the fact that all Cubans have free access to high-quality, high-tech health services and applauded the country's ongoing campaigns to eradicate communicable diseases.

He also praised the work of Cuban health care workers in more than 32 countries and the medical training offered by Cuban universities to thousands of students from around the world.

The WHO experts expressed particular interest in Cuba's biotech industry, which has developed vaccines to fight cancer and other diseases, and Cuban medical products are marketed in over 40 countries.

The WHO delegation is scheduled to meet Thursday with Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez and tour the Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology in Havana.

On Friday, the group will attend the closing ceremony of the Congress of Geriatrics and Gerontology.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/health/2012-03/28/c_131493136.htm
Advanced


hmmmm....The China news, posts a story of the WHO, praising the Communist health system, as a great achievement of the socialist revolution....So we have a communist propaganda outlet, touting a socialist orientated organizations findings, of a communist State....

Ah well, it must be the truth...:roll:
 
Money has the same value to the employer as the employee. It therefore, makes the same amount of difference to each.
I disagree. Getting an extra dollar an hour means a lot more to those who have little to start with.

You want to view the employer as somehow not deserving of his profits which he gained from the efforts of the employee, and therefore, it is somehow justified that we take from the employer and give to the employee.

Stop putting your words in my mouth. I never said or even hinted that an employer doesn't deserve to make a profit.

But there is a mutual cooperative happening here. The employer is providing a job and income, the employee is providing productivity or creativity.

I said this very thing in another post.

The employee is compensated, and the employer reaps a profit from their production by investment of capital, marketing, assuming risks and liability, etc. Money is just as important to the employer as it is the employee.

It's important in different ways. The employer wants to maximize profits first. The employee wants to earn his wages without being taken advantage of.

Now, what happens when we increase the "bottom rate" for labor, or "minimum wage" is that all lower-level income will precipitously increase, because that is the natural order of things... If Joe was making $7.25 and get's increased to $7.50, then Jim who makes $7.50 will demand $8.00... and so on.

This happens with or without a minimum wage. I've worked for corporations all my life and this is how people act when they learn that someone got a raise. It's the human condition. It's "keeping up with the Joneses."

We can argue back and forth as to how much this would actually cause consumer prices to rise, or jobs to be lost.... but the bottom line is, it will ALWAYS be a negative effect. Regardless of how little or how much, is not the point. At this time, we don't need to be doing ANYTHING to cause a negative effect on business or hiring. If we were in a robust period of economic expansion, perhaps that would be an appropriate time to consider such a thing, because the negative effects would be inconsequential, and we could live with it. Right now, we can't live with what we have, we don't need to make things WORSE!

I don't have faith that employers can be trusted to do the right thing if there was no minimum wage. Somebody, don't remember who, mentioned outsourcing as one of the consequences of raising minimum wage. How does giving American jobs to people in another country help our employment problems? So the corporation profits a little more but X number of Americans lose their jobs. Seems a bit like cutting off the nose to spite the face.

Do you want to repeal the minimum wage laws?
 
Absolutely! And we have a current administration that is satisfied with 8% plus unemployment. This plays into it No?

It's ridiculous to say the current administration is "satisfied" with 8% unemployment. Listen to some of Obama's speeches, not Rush's rants.
 
The "problem" (presumably poverty) will never be solved by one law.
The agony, the utter misery of some of the poorest of the working poor may be somewhat alleviated. That is the goal, and the only goal.

Now please, please show how the burden of an increased minimum wage has damaged the economy in the past.

:clap::hand::good4u:
 
I disagree. Getting an extra dollar an hour means a lot more to those who have little to start with.

Absolutely you are right about that....$1 equals $160 per month gross, and approximately $120 per month after taxes. That can mean quite a bit. However, to most people I know, it means more when it comes as a recognition of a job well done, rather than a dictate from on high through the pity of the ruling class.

Stop putting your words in my mouth. I never said or even hinted that an employer doesn't deserve to make a profit.

Who should determine what an acceptable level of profit is for a particular business?

It's important in different ways. The employer wants to maximize profits first. The employee wants to earn his wages without being taken advantage of.

Yep, sounds like supply and demand to me....

This happens with or without a minimum wage. I've worked for corporations all my life and this is how people act when they learn that someone got a raise. It's the human condition. It's "keeping up with the Joneses."

Not everyone...Not me..I have never much cared what other made, working most of my life not on a time clock but rather on what I produced.
I've been told that I am constantly among the top earners, and still that is nice to hear, but I know what drives me, and it isn't what anyone else makes.

I don't have faith that employers can be trusted to do the right thing if there was no minimum wage. Somebody, don't remember who, mentioned outsourcing as one of the consequences of raising minimum wage. How does giving American jobs to people in another country help our employment problems? So the corporation profits a little more but X number of Americans lose their jobs. Seems a bit like cutting off the nose to spite the face.

Having the experience you do with working for Corporations, What is the ratio between outsourcing to obtain cheaper labor, v. escape burdensome regulation, and taxation? Was GE's exodus more labor, or inside info about the regime coming their way?
 
It's ridiculous to say the current administration is "satisfied" with 8% unemployment. Listen to some of Obama's speeches, not Rush's rants.

I have intently. And I believe the latest blurb from the Obama administration was that the latest figure of only 80K jobs created, (not enough to even keep up with those entering the workforce) was "expected", and the president himself said in a speech that "This is moving in the right direction" - Are you freaking kidding me?
 
hmmmm....The China news, posts a story of the WHO, praising the Communist health system, as a great achievement of the socialist revolution....So we have a communist propaganda outlet, touting a socialist orientated organizations findings, of a communist State....

Ah well, it must be the truth...:roll:

here ya go. i tried to find an honest evaluation of Cuban health care- google around -see what you see.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/06/201265115527622647.html
By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.


Cuba's food challenge

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

And while the preventative healthcare system works well for children, women over the age of 40 are being shortchanged because yearly mammograms are not offered to the population at large.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.

Healthcare for hard currency

In all fairness, in the past five years, the government has made great efforts to improve hospitals and health centres, but again, lack of resources is making the process painfully slow.

The system is free, but it is neither fast nor efficient for two important reasons. One is obviously the lack of financial resources, and the other - which is related to the first - is the "export" of doctors, nurses and dentists in exchange for hard currency.

Thousands of Cuban doctors go to Venezuela to provide primary healthcare there. Their tour of duty lasts a minimum of two years and they are paid approximately $50 a month, plus expenses. In exchange, Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's president, sends Cuba petrol, part of which can be sold for hard currency.

When a friend of mine was unable to be operated on as scheduled, because there was no anesthesiologist available, "they are all in Venezuela" was a complaint I regularly heard.

Another way the country is attempting to obtain hard currency is to offer health services to foreigners - something that has been dubbed "health tourism". But some question whether visitors really get what they pay for.

Falling behind

From my experience, there are specialties in which Cuba excels, such as the rehabilitation of patients who have had strokes or are suffering from neurological disorders, such as Parkinson's disease. Patients who go to CIREN (the Centre for Neurological Regeneration) receive personalised care from well-trained therapists.

But the surgery offered to Parkinson’s sufferers is no longer state-of-the-art by any means.

Cuban specialists complain that they do not have the same opportunities to travel, to attend conferences and to read journals on the latest medical advances as their peers in other countries. They feel, probably correctly, that they are falling behind.

Over the years, I have heard many complain about the deteriorating quality of the services offered. One of the problems is that no small number of Cuban doctors have left the country looking for better opportunities abroad. They are considered deserters.

But for all its shortcomings, Cubans do have better access to healthcare than the majority of those living in many "developing nations", where public health is shockingly inadequate.

And as with so many things in Cuba, the state health service offers some amazing paradoxes: you may have problems obtaining medicine, but getting a bust lift, or even a sex change, is no problem, and moreover, it is free of charge.
 
every single time MW has gone up, so does the cost of food and other necessities.

it doesn't affect things like you think

(had to edit.. sorry, was replying to wrong post... oops :0 )

This report makes such comparisons, for employment in all industries
together and for the retail trade industry, the lowest-wage industry and thus the industry most
likely to be affected by the minimum wage. The results clearly point toward no adverse
employment effects in the higher minimum wage states between January 1998 and January
2006. In fact, the findings show that job growth in the higher minimum wage states surpassed
that in the remaining states.
A detailed comparison in New York showed that retail
employment grew faster than employment as a whole after that state’s minimum wage
increase in 2005.
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf


So, raising the minimum wage will somehow NOT raise the price of milk? Wow, when did that happen?

we haven't had a MW hike since 2009 and food,utilities and milk have gone up anyway...

consumer spending drives something like 70% of the economy. MW affects the lower-income group... the lower income group is the one who immediately spends most, if not all of their money and puts relatively none of bank into a savings account or money market accounts. the economy needs to grow, ppl need to spend.. business will make more money if people have more money to spend. if people don't have money, then they can't buy and business will fail.

This is same argument for no healthcare option, 'it will raise premiums'... prices are going up without a minimum wage hike, health-costs are going up without universal insurance.. so the argument that the "prices will go up" with these things doesn't make much sense..
 
Last edited:
This is actually an interesting question Rune....Now I can hope that you are learning.

So let's take a look at it shall we?

Family (A) has a weekly gross income of $3,000. per week, and for the sake of even purposes has two children.

Now let's look at their bills.

1. tax liability - Combined between Federal, State, Property, Local they have an off the top liability of (being generous here) 45% that equals $1,350 per week off the top...That leaves a net spendable income to the household of $1,650.

2. They have to save for their own retirement at the rate of say 20% combined retirement and savings for emergencies that is another $330. bringing their income to $1,320

3. Using your number they spend $300 per week on groceries, now we are down to $1,020.

4. Mortgage for their socio economic range is around $650. per week that brings us to $370 left.

5. Utilities including cable, internet, cell phones etc. let's be generous and say $150. per week, that leaves $220.

6. They own two cars, one outright, and one on payments of let's say $100 per week. That now leaves $120. per week left over.

7. Now you're not done. They have kids, sports, extra activities, and gas, tolls, and other expenses it is more than likely that in some weeks there isn't enough left overfor our couple to even have $20 left for themselves for lunch during the week.

Now let's look at your couple on welfare.

1. Their housing is paid for
2. Their food is paid for
3. Their utilities are paid for
4. They get a stipend for spending
5. If they increase their family size their income from the State is increased.

Now, do they live the exact same lifestyles as the couple that works to earn their lifestyle? No.

Does the recipient class family deserve the funding they get? Some do yes. Some things are beyond their control..

Is it most likely that a strong majority of generational recipients could leave the rolls tomorrow if cut off? yes.

Welfare recipients do get cut off from cash payments after five years. Note that in the means testing for welfare, payments are called "assistance", not gifts, and are contingent on the recipient having some income or being in job training.

But regarding your fictional family that gets $3000/week, that works out to $156K a year which puts them in the top 5% of all wage earners. There's plenty of room to cut expenses even under your inflated numbers for every household item. Median income in the country is around $45K. There are way too many variables in your scenario to make me feel sorry for that top 5% earner while applauding the welfare recipient.
 
here ya go. i tried to find an honest evaluation of Cuban health care- google around -see what you see.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/06/201265115527622647.html
By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.


Cuba's food challenge

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

And while the preventative healthcare system works well for children, women over the age of 40 are being shortchanged because yearly mammograms are not offered to the population at large.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.

Healthcare for hard currency

In all fairness, in the past five years, the government has made great efforts to improve hospitals and health centres, but again, lack of resources is making the process painfully slow.

The system is free, but it is neither fast nor efficient for two important reasons. One is obviously the lack of financial resources, and the other - which is related to the first - is the "export" of doctors, nurses and dentists in exchange for hard currency.

Thousands of Cuban doctors go to Venezuela to provide primary healthcare there. Their tour of duty lasts a minimum of two years and they are paid approximately $50 a month, plus expenses. In exchange, Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's president, sends Cuba petrol, part of which can be sold for hard currency.

When a friend of mine was unable to be operated on as scheduled, because there was no anesthesiologist available, "they are all in Venezuela" was a complaint I regularly heard.

Another way the country is attempting to obtain hard currency is to offer health services to foreigners - something that has been dubbed "health tourism". But some question whether visitors really get what they pay for.

Falling behind

From my experience, there are specialties in which Cuba excels, such as the rehabilitation of patients who have had strokes or are suffering from neurological disorders, such as Parkinson's disease. Patients who go to CIREN (the Centre for Neurological Regeneration) receive personalised care from well-trained therapists.

But the surgery offered to Parkinson’s sufferers is no longer state-of-the-art by any means.

Cuban specialists complain that they do not have the same opportunities to travel, to attend conferences and to read journals on the latest medical advances as their peers in other countries. They feel, probably correctly, that they are falling behind.

Over the years, I have heard many complain about the deteriorating quality of the services offered. One of the problems is that no small number of Cuban doctors have left the country looking for better opportunities abroad. They are considered deserters.

But for all its shortcomings, Cubans do have better access to healthcare than the majority of those living in many "developing nations", where public health is shockingly inadequate.

And as with so many things in Cuba, the state health service offers some amazing paradoxes: you may have problems obtaining medicine, but getting a bust lift, or even a sex change, is no problem, and moreover, it is free of charge.

Seems like the two are at paradox with each other...Wonder who is right?
 
I have intently. And I believe the latest blurb from the Obama administration was that the latest figure of only 80K jobs created, (not enough to even keep up with those entering the workforce) was "expected", and the president himself said in a speech that "This is moving in the right direction" - Are you freaking kidding me?

Why did you take his quote out of context to try and make your point?

"On the day new employment numbers showed a disappointing growth of 80,000 jobs in June, President Barack Obama on Friday nodded to the small increase but said there was more work to be done. "It's still tough out there," Obama said at a campaign stop in Poland, Ohio.

Adding that some of the new jobs included manufacturing positions and that June marked the 28th straight month of job creation in the private sector, Obama said last month's numbers indicated "a step in the right direction." However, he said, that wasn't enough.


"We can't be satisfied because our goal was never to just keep on working to get to where were back in 2007," the president said. "I want to get back to a time when middle class families and those working to get into the middle class have some basic security. That's our goal."


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/06/obama-eats-grits-rides-a-bus-campaigns/
 
Having the experience you do with working for Corporations, What is the ratio between outsourcing to obtain cheaper labor, v. escape burdensome regulation, and taxation? Was GE's exodus more labor, or inside info about the regime coming their way?

None of the companies I've worked for outsourced. They had plants in different states to take advantage of state work laws.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why did you take his quote out of context to try and make your point?

"On the day new employment numbers showed a disappointing growth of 80,000 jobs in June, President Barack Obama on Friday nodded to the small increase but said there was more work to be done. "It's still tough out there," Obama said at a campaign stop in Poland, Ohio.

Adding that some of the new jobs included manufacturing positions and that June marked the 28th straight month of job creation in the private sector, Obama said last month's numbers indicated "a step in the right direction." However, he said, that wasn't enough.


"We can't be satisfied because our goal was never to just keep on working to get to where were back in 2007," the president said. "I want to get back to a time when middle class families and those working to get into the middle class have some basic security. That's our goal."


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/06/obama-eats-grits-rides-a-bus-campaigns/

Out of context is the argument of those looking to either block the true message, or lie about it.

But let's give Obama the benefit of the doubt. What then is his plan for greater growth? More spending? More teachers? More printing money out of thin air with no budget passed?

What a joke.
 
Out of context is the argument of those looking to either block the true message, or lie about it.

But let's give Obama the benefit of the doubt. What then is his plan for greater growth? More spending? More teachers? More printing money out of thin air with no budget passed?

What a joke.

Out of context is you lifting the words "a step in the right direction" and using them as a standalone phrase to describe his position on jobs.
 
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