Rationing and long lines

Brits aren't coming in large numbers because the trip is fairly expensive. We have a number of Canadians in the US being treated in US facilities. We also have at least 10 million or so, illegal Mexicans being treated in emergency rooms. A very good Russian friend of mine, came to America because her daughter had a rare heart condition and UAB was where the doctors there recommended she be taken for treatment.

So there is plenty of evidence to support the US health system as a literal medical mecca to the rest of the world. I'm sure we even have a few Brits here being treated for something.

You see, i don't have any problem with that post. This wasn't an argument over which is best, or that the US system isn't any good. There are specialist and experimental treatments in the US which aren't available anywhere else and a small number of Brits do receive treatment there.

I was simply aiming to get SM to see that when he says Brits are flocking to the US to pay for private treatment he is mistaken as there are readily available and cheaper alternatives on our own doorstep.
 
Becaue you get what you pay for. surely you can understand that quality and liability come with a fee. You might have cheaper care, but you have to nobody to sue when you get screwed

Believe it or not we do have a court system as well.
 
I agree, but there comes a time to accept the fact that the status-quo is a failure and go on from there. There are those out there in the industry and bought-and-paid-for politicians who would be quite content to do absolutely nothing. With change, we may and probably will make mistakes, but if we don't start a path to change soon, the Healthcare system will destroy us while it enriches the already wealthy even more. The insurance business adds absolutely nothing to the quality of healthcare, the opposite being the truth, yet with Part D etc. we subsidize them.
For how much longer can private business be required to be the healthcare provider of last resort and still be competitive in the world? The Chinese, Mexicans and Indians must love it while the Canadians and Europeans laugh at us and marvel at our stupidity.
I do not see anyone actually advocating a do nothing approach. There are those who would prefer doing nothing than follow the call for additional government intervention. But doing nothing is not the only alternative to what the liberal democrats are calling for.

And them calling it "reform" is still a fucking lie.

As for Europe et. al., I could not possible care less what other countries think of our health care system, given the fact that most medical technology innovation comes from our system. When their systems can match ours for development of new treatments and technologies, then I might pay attention to what they have to say. There is more to the health care issue than simply making it more affordable/available to J.Q. Public. If we'd stayed with older technologies and pharmaceuticals, there would probably be no heath care affordability issue to worry about. Quality of care includes finding new, better treatments for diseases, finding cures for the incurable, etc.
 
Charver, is it true that British health care is now looking towards more privatization?

(A few S's and u's to add wherever they are most aesthetically pleasing... uuuuUUUU SssSSSs) :D
 
No, that's a crude comparison of American and British hospitals.

What i asked was where is the evidence that British people are coming in any significant numbers for treatment in the US when they are more expensive than private UK hospitals or European alternatives.

Come on SM. You could just admit you're talking bollocks and we'll say no more about it. :)
Again, my argument is based on anecdotal evidence backed up by documented disparities between the two systems and the basic fact that if people have the money they are more than willing to pay for being healthy regardless of the cost, as well as the fact that wealthy folks willing pay large dollars for real or perceived quality and convenience. *shrug*
 
I do not see anyone actually advocating a do nothing approach. There are those who would prefer doing nothing than follow the call for additional government intervention. But doing nothing is not the only alternative to what the liberal democrats are calling for.

And them calling it "reform" is still a fucking lie.

As for Europe et. al., I could not possible care less what other countries think of our health care system, given the fact that most medical technology innovation comes from our system. When their systems can match ours for development of new treatments and technologies, then I might pay attention to what they have to say. There is more to the health care issue than simply making it more affordable/available to J.Q. Public. If we'd stayed with older technologies and pharmaceuticals, there would probably be no heath care affordability issue to worry about. Quality of care includes finding new, better treatments for diseases, finding cures for the incurable, etc.


You used a quote for "reform", I don't see where I have used that word anywhere. What I call for is replacing a failed, costly, non-productive system with an attempt for something better. Reform is based on a current system, replacement is something new and, hopefully, innovative.
Where is the rule granted to drug and medical manufacturing companies that Americans will pay for R&D while the discounts go to offshore consumers?
Regarding your statement re: J.Q. Public, we part company. That is THE issue, everything else, including profits, is secondary. Every American is entitled to healthcare even if he can't afford it, that is the way to bring the US into the 21st Century with the rest of the civilized world.
I was curious how US companies can be expected to be the providers of healthcare and still be competitive. If it can't be done, who should the provider be? Do you have an opinion?
I should add; if what you say in your final 2 sentences is true, why then is the US so far down the list in results, given our medical prowess?
 
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Brits aren't coming in large numbers because the trip is fairly expensive. We have a number of Canadians in the US being treated in US facilities. We also have at least 10 million or so, illegal Mexicans being treated in emergency rooms. A very good Russian friend of mine, came to America because her daughter had a rare heart condition and UAB was where the doctors there recommended she be taken for treatment.

So there is plenty of evidence to support the US health system as a literal medical mecca to the rest of the world. I'm sure we even have a few Brits here being treated for something.


University of Alabama, Birmingham. A government entity? You'd better warn her.
 
I do not see anyone actually advocating a do nothing approach. There are those who would prefer doing nothing than follow the call for additional government intervention. But doing nothing is not the only alternative to what the liberal democrats are calling for.

And them calling it "reform" is still a fucking lie.

As for Europe et. al., I could not possible care less what other countries think of our health care system, given the fact that most medical technology innovation comes from our system. When their systems can match ours for development of new treatments and technologies, then I might pay attention to what they have to say. There is more to the health care issue than simply making it more affordable/available to J.Q. Public. If we'd stayed with older technologies and pharmaceuticals, there would probably be no heath care affordability issue to worry about. Quality of care includes finding new, better treatments for diseases, finding cures for the incurable, etc.

You are absolutely right, and make some brilliant points, but this is not what liberals are interested in, don't you see? They have this romantic love affair with European socialism, and nothing is going to do until we change our system to mirror that of their role models. We can raise all the legitimate and articulate points we want to, we can scream about this all we like, it doesn't change what the liberals want.

The templates and examples they give us, are in isolated small nations, where socialist models are adequate for the circumstances, but the only large-scale examples of socialized medicine, Canada and UK, the results are dismal. Canadians are flocking to the US in droves for medical care they can't get in Canada, and in UK they have been forced to concede some privatization of services and interject capitalism into the system. In NONE of the examples, is the medical care, availability or quality, BETTER than the US!

In fact, when you consider American indigent care laws, NONE of the socialist examples offer the level and quality of care ON DEMAND to those in emergency need! People are NOT dying in the street due to lack of medical care! Every hospital in America is obligated to treat the indigent and not deny emergency care to ANYONE!

The problems which make health care in America an issue, are NOT being addressed with the liberal socialist program, the problems are all being passed off onto government to pay for with tax revenues. It is the equivalent to having your car barely running, and putting a can of that "fix-all" gunk in, hoping it will make it run better! If anything, it will make the problems worse... it will NOT fix the engine! Eventually, you have to tear it down completely, and find all the "problems" causing it to run poorly, and when those are fixed, your car runs well again.

We can't "fix" the problem of EXPENSIVE health care, until we take an objective and reasonable look at what drives the costs up. We can't "fix" the problem of the UNINSURED until we define what makes them uninsured, and fix that! We can't "fix" the problem of AVAILABILITY until we address the influx of illegal aliens jamming up our emergency rooms! All of the assorted PARTS require different levels of approach, different ideas and strategies to implement, to change the fundamentals in a way which helps solve the problem. But Liberals want NO part of this.... It's not about REFORM... it is about SOCIALIST UTOPIA!
 
It would really help the level of debate if the people who are so vocally against the admin's plan would actually look at the thing...
 
Again, my argument is based on anecdotal evidence backed up by documented disparities between the two systems and the basic fact that if people have the money they are more than willing to pay for being healthy regardless of the cost, as well as the fact that wealthy folks willing pay large dollars for real or perceived quality and convenience. *shrug*

You really have a problem admitting you're wrong don't you?

You may have a point about Canadians using US hospitals but insisting you have wards full of cancerous cockneys is just making you look a bit daft.
 
You really have a problem admitting you're wrong don't you?

You may have a point about Canadians using US hospitals but insisting you have wards full of cancerous cockneys is just making you look a bit daft.

Actually, my sister, who's a nurse in Toronto, says it's quite the reverse -- many people from the US have been found with bogus health cards (and that's only those that have been detected) using them for services in Ontario.
 
"Every hospital in America is obligated to treat the indigent and not deny emergency care to ANYONE! "

And then take your home to pay the bills.
Medical bills are the top cause of personal bankruptcy in the USA.
Or at least were before the recession.
 
Charver, is it true that British health care is now looking towards more privatization?

(A few S's and u's to add wherever they are most aesthetically pleasing... uuuuUUUU SssSSSs) :D

Labour initiated a huge Private Finance Initiative for the construction of new hospitals which was conveniently "off the books". We got lots of new hospitals but at a huge cost.

There's all sorts of private involvement in the day to day running of the NHS. For example, NHS contracts are given to private hospitals, if you exceed set waiting times for operations the NHS will pay for you to have the procedure in a private hospital.

I won't even mention dental treatment which has been essentially hived off from the normal NHS for many a year now. That, you generally pay for unless you're on benefits, a child or a pensioner.

Things like cleaning services and catering are put up for compulsory tender. A private company got the contract to provide phone and tv services and proceeded to charge extortionate rates to phone in or out. Luckily, many hospitals have relaxed the blanket mobile phone ban circumventing the vultures.

It looks like there's going to be more involvement of the private sector under the guise of 'cost cutting' whoever wins the next election. The Tories have always welcomed privatisation. Labour criticise it but then go further than the Tories would ever have dared. Frankly, anything's possible after the government gave all our money to a couple of banks.
 
"Frankly, anything's possible after the government gave all our money to a couple of banks."

You got that right!
 
Actually, my sister, who's a nurse in Toronto, says it's quite the reverse -- many people from the US have been found with bogus health cards (and that's only those that have been detected) using them for services in Ontario.

Luckily, i only said he "may have a point" :p

Just looking up the destinations of British health tourists it was amazing to see how many Americans were seeking treatment abroad. Apparently, it was round about 750,000 in 2007, and rising rapidly, so god knows what that figure has reached now.
 
Luckily, i only said he "may have a point" :p

Just looking up the destinations of British health tourists it was amazing to see how many Americans were seeking treatment abroad. Apparently, it was round about 750,000 in 2007, and rising rapidly, so god knows what that figure has reached now.


Americans must like to wait in lines and be rationed.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Do you know how many people in America DIE from FDA approved drugs....drugs that went through the process you allude to?

Do you know how many incompetant doctors are STILL in practice despite numerous successful malpractice suits (meaning they screwed up and/or killed a patient?)

Oh, and the second to last paragraph......unless you have something besides, opinion, supposition and conjecture, its' meaningless.

That is one of my central points: that despite the heavy - and costly - federal regulations in place, the same kinds of mistakes are being made. That tells me (and anyone who actually thinks for themselves rather than depending on mommy government to do it for them) that the regulations currently in place are pretty much useless.

Ahhh, but you have to THINK beyond the point you stopped at.....what is being proposed is REFORM. In other words, that nifty little collusion between the FDA and pharmaceutical companies would have to be overhauled under new proposals and regulations....and THAT is what is being resisted by the status quo. One cannot consistently promote the fantasy that private enterprise is so much better without gov't control when you are consistently bombarded with all the corruptions and shyster moves by said companies to avoid what gov't regulation there is, while at the same time AVOIDING the responsibility owed to the public when their products cause harm.

We have regulations that delay the introduction of pharmaceuticals by as much as a decade - yet new drugs with bad side effects keep popping up and are later withdrawn. We have regulations (supposedly) keeping track of bad medical decisions, yet nothing happens from the data that federal regulations mandate medical facilities gather and report. And THAT is the fault of the FDA and the Pharmaceutical companies....outsourcing certain lab work to companies that are coincidently financed by the pharmaceuticals....congressional lobbying by pharmaceuticals to pass regulations that hinder certain FDA protocols. We have regulations requiring minimum levels of malpractice insurance (Side note - nowhere did I mention frivolous lawsuits, did I?) creating an artificially inflated market for the insurance companies. Yet we have doctors practicing who should not be practicing because all the malpractice industry does is get injured people (and some not-so-injured people, but that is not my point) large (sometime overly large, but again is not my point) settlements while doing NOTHING to address the problem of malpractice itself (and THAT is my point). What you leave it is that it's up to the individual hospitals and the AMA to address the isssue of incompetant and/or negligent doctors or hospital practices. And since hospitals have legal teams that treat the hospital as an individual with rights, and the doctors have lawyers and UNIONS who are quite adept at fighting lawsuits, the people who are honest victims have nowhere to turn but the federal gov't.

In short, the problems lie in the fact that we have innumerable regulations and other factors keeping a bunch of D.C. fat asses employed on the public ticket, keeping ambulance chasing lawyers in their BMWs; all factors in creating vast expenses for the medical industry that are, by necessity, passed onto the consumer; while there is little to no demonstrable GOOD coming from these self same regulations and infrastructures to justify the added costs of medical treatment in our society. See my immediate above response. To place the entire blame on the federal gov't is inaccurate.

I do not object to regulations on the pharmaceutical industry, medical equipment industry, etc. It keep out the snake oil salesmen. But when there are so many regulations and requirements that, in the end, do nothing but add to the development costs of a new medical technology, then the regulations, how they affect medical research, how they affect costs, and if they achieve their purpose all needs to be closely examined. That is not wholly true....do some research and you'll see that budgets for research are mostly taken up by the salaries for the researchers......case in point, doctors and medical scientist becoming millionaires on AIDS research....pharamceutical patents that rake in BIG bucks for the companies producing them.
As for conjecture, I asked (did you see the question mark? do you know what a question mark signifies?) if it is possible that the degree and type of some regulations could possibly lead to more mistakes being made, rather than fewer. It is entirely possible that valid research methods are being compromised because a regulation is poorly written thus requiring use of a less valid procedure to meet some federal requirements.

I saw your question marks......and when placed in context with the rest of your posts, skews the question itself. You focus on gov't regulation as the culprit without adequate consideration to the details regarding what I've mentioned above.

It is far from meaningless to ask such things. Asking whether some regulations result in more harm is a valid question to ask. Asking questions about where problems stem from is the first step in actual reform. We ARE talking about reform, right? (Oh, I forget. "Health care reform" is supposed to mean how much MORE regulations and interference should the government add to the mess.)

See above responses.....my statements here and previously stand valid.
 
For consistency, you would then favor privatization of Police and Fire Departments? I'm sure Blackwater and Halliburton would love to step right in, without contracts or audits of course.

No, they prefer things as they are......people dying because an HMO denied a procedure.....collusion by the FDA and pharmaceutical lobbyist that result in people getting killed by "approved" drugs, yet they fight "alternative" treatments tooth and nail. They scream about "frivolous" lawsuits, and yet they don't know exactly what is the percentage of such lawsuits compared to the actual legitimate lawsuits.

They scream about nanny gov't yet they just ignore how some private institutions act without oversight.
 
This just sent to me from a young friend.

My mom took my to the emergency room and from there was sent to urgent care... We sat around for three hours and then was told to go somewheres else in the morning.
 
This just sent to me from a young friend.

My mom took my to the emergency room and from there was sent to urgent care... We sat around for three hours and then was told to go somewheres else in the morning.

.....AND the magic hand of Government stepping in here, would certainly provide this young friend more prompt and immediate service, I suppose? Is THAT what you think would happen differently, if government runs the show?

Again.... You emotively post some obscure individual sob story, as IF for some miraculous reason, the government assuming the role of responsibility, would prevent this from ever being the case!

In a government-run system, the scenario would be the same, with the exception of... we filled out dozens of forms before waiting three hours to be told to go somewheres else in the morning.... and in the morning.... we filled out the same forms again today.... etc. In other words, you are NOT going to fix the problems with health care, by turning it over to people who don't know the first thing about solving problems!
 
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