APP - Reason is not Rational

M

midcan5

Member
Long ago reading Derek Parfit's 'Reasons And Persons' I became fascinated with all the reasons we give for our actions. Parfit was interested in the various ways we rationalize our behavior and our justifications in a secular world. One item that fascinated me was the debate on self interest and actual behavior. I had had a long debate arguing 'self interest' is not the only motivating factor in our decision making. My wife told me just recently that I am never self centered. I liked that thought. Finding this piece adds to the complexity of reasons and persons.

"Reasoning was not designed to pursue the truth. Reasoning was designed by evolution to help us win arguments. That's why they call it The Argumentative Theory of Reasoning. So, as they put it,"The evidence reviewed here shows not only that reasoning falls quite short of reliably delivering rational beliefs and rational decisions. It may even be, in a variety of cases, detrimental to rationality. Reasoning can lead to poor outcomes, not because humans are bad at it, but because they systematically strive for arguments that justify their beliefs or their actions. This explains the confirmation bias, motivated reasoning, and reason-based choice, among other things."

http://edge.org/conversation/the-argumentative-theory

'Why Do Humans Reason? Arguments for an Argumentative Theory'

"Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation." http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1698090
 
really? are you sure midcan? all reason is not rational? or is it....it is not reason because your far left views make it so it is not rational?

midcan - you always post others thoughts and quotes - what do you believe would make a better america?
 
Yurt said:
really? are you sure midcan? all reason is not rational? or is it....it is not reason because your far left views make it so it is not rational?

midcan - you always post others thoughts and quotes - what do you believe would make a better america?
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I post ideas I agree with - well mostly agree with. This is called confirmation by some, knowledge sharing by others, or even additional information, a sort of bibliography of our lives and our attempts at understanding as none of us exist in a vacuum, or gather knowledge through osmosis.

What prompted your second question I wonder, and how is it relevant to point of the OP? Reason is arguing, you of all people here should know that, don't you create reality for a living? Improving America is easy, but if I told you you'd think it irrational. But I'll grab a quote from my database to give you a hint and then later after you tell me your plan we can see if they match.

"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land'
 
midcan5 said:
What is 'Impericism?' Do you mean Empiricism? (Yes, sorry about the spelling) Even our senses can be irrational, ever hear of capgras? Or lots of other mental conditions including Toothfairism, a condition similar to Libertarianism? I'm retarded.
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As for the second sentence, our senses can only mislead us for so long. Empiricism is true rationalism, nonetheless.
 
St. Peter said:
As for the second sentence, our senses can only mislead us for so long. Empiricism is true rationalism, nonetheless.
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Which senses would that be? Empiricism is actually distinct from rationalism, I may, for instance, want (rationalize) a world in which no child suffers unnecessarily and yet my sense of the world is that this is simply not true and actually contrary to policies of republicans and libertarians? Cutting off support for children is not a moral, nor rational thing. As St. Peter you surely must have seen the letter the priests sent to Boehner, this leads us back to the OP as now the argument becomes 'it's all for the best' or how do we rationalize what empirically is a bad act.


"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." Dom Helder Camara
 
Rationalizing is not rationalism. Most of the time it is just an argument intended to persuade people to do something irrational. True rationalism is learning, understanding, and explaining the truth, based upon reason, which is what empiricism attempts to do, except more scientifically.
 
St. Peter said:
Rationalizing is not rationalism. Most of the time it is just an argument intended to persuade people to do something irrational. True rationalism is learning, understanding, and explaining the truth, based upon reason, which is what empiricism attempts to do, except more scientifically.
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man is a mostly rationalizing animal...
 
St. Peter said:
Rationalizing is not rationalism. Most of the time it is just an argument intended to persuade people to do something irrational. True rationalism is learning, understanding, and explaining the truth, based upon reason, which is what empiricism attempts to do, except more scientifically.
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That is a tautology. Science explains little in the area of argument, consider debates over gay marriage, abortion, ID v evolution, stem cell use, science doesn't help settle these arguments. Science can't even settle global warming. Saying something is 'true rationalism' only pushes the point up a notch, it doesn't address the key point that reason is not rational.

repost: "Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation." http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1698090
 
what sophistry you spew. You got your ass handed to you above. You simply love to classify your dreaming as rationalizing. Like all global warmers, you don't know what science is. None of the things you listed are scientific. Stem cell is a moral issue to some. The science part is not in question. Global warming is statistics. The science part is supposed to be repeatable, but with warmers, they hide their data and methods like crooks would. Fraud is easy to spot.
 
tinfoil said:
what sophistry you spew. You got your ass handed to you above. You simply love to classify your dreaming as rationalizing. Like all global warmers, you don't know what science is. None of the things you listed are scientific. Stem cell is a moral issue to some. The science part is not in question. Global warming is statistics. The science part is supposed to be repeatable, but with warmers, they hide their data and methods like crooks would. Fraud is easy to spot.
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That post wins dumb post of the month and is in contention for year. Not sure if I can write when I am asleep? Can you? Yes, stem cell is a religious issue to some, you can make it moral but the only ground for that is religion. Global warming is fact, and the scientific community agrees. You know nothing and you presume to be stating a position, do yourself a favor and read the OP before inserting foot in mouth.
 
This article is just playing with words. it confuses logic, agenda, and argument. Arguments are intended to persuade. We use logic to analyze proffered arguments. If the arguments do not seem logical, we may suspect an agenda.

Warmers will not submit their work products to the normal rigour of scientific logic, thus, thinking people suspect an agenda.

What is the agenda? It's to deny large segements of the population enough energy for their needs, in accordance with the globalist elitist population control agenda.
 
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AssHatZombie said:
This article is just playing with words. it confuses logic, agenda, and argument. Arguments are intended to persuade. We use logic to analyze proffered arguments. If the arguments do not seem logical, we may suspect an agenda.

Warmers will not submit their work products to the normal rigour of scientific logic, thus, thinking people suspect an agenda.

What is the agenda? It's to deny large segements of the population enough energy for their needs, in accordance with the globalist elitist population control agenda.
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Or we could ignore global climate change and just let everyone starve to death when the dustbowls take over all arable land.

Would that also suit the globalist elite agenda?
 
Damocles said:
Yes. Then we'd all be eating Soylent Green...
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actually, arable land will move north or south depending on which hemisphere you are referring to

however, the effect of diseases and pests during the changeover are ill defined

areas of drought and flood will change and hopefully man will adapt (like he usually does), however, the changeover will be painful and population shifts will be difficult due to national borders
 
Don Quixote said:
actually, arable land will move north or south depending on which hemisphere you are referring to

however, the effect of diseases and pests during the changeover are ill defined

areas of drought and flood will change and hopefully man will adapt (like he usually does), however, the changeover will be painful and population shifts will be difficult due to national borders
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While it may be true that some arable land MAY be gained, there is no predicting whether the result will net increase or decrease.
 
If anyone doubts the premise of the OP they have Newt on 'face the nation' this past weekend for consideration. Then they have Newt on Monday, and then they have the republican backlash. Interesting twisting of words and ideas, republicans have become so ideological not only are they politically irrational but now the irrationality has gained the status of commandment.

Oh and don't quote Newt's own words because they too were irrational dependent on the day or hour you quote him. You'll need to check.

As far as global warming, that is fact as temperatures are rising. For all the flat earthers out there, fact is the earth is warming, argue about cause if you like but reality is sometimes reality, at least apart from the republican world.

400,000 year view global warming

James Balog: Time-lapse proof of extreme ice loss | Video on TED.com
 
Rep. Joe Wilson R said:
Or we could ignore global climate change and just let everyone starve to death when the dustbowls take over all arable land.

Would that also suit the globalist elite agenda?
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We could create enough food for everyone easily, with modern technology. The food scarcity is falsely created. All our problems are man made, by mass murderers.

there is no will among the elites to truly provide and care for humanity, they are cynical through and through, and expend their efforts trying keep all of humanity "in check". Maybe the aliens make them do it. They sell the rest of us out to keep their power. It's called "realpolitik" or "hegemonic stability". its the current operative meme of the global elites.
 
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