Romney delivers powerful message.

And before, you said it was most teachers, then you said it was 100,000, now you're saying it's 1000...and you're not moving goalposts and redefining parameters?

Another lie. I never said it was "most teachers." I even posted all my previous statements about what I said and none said anything close to that.

The 14% was the only data I could find regarding teachers. You didn't believe that number but cited the "half inherited it" and others are due to a second earner. You pick and choose the numbers you reject and those you believe even when from the same source.

You made a stupid remark without thinking that no teachers have retirement accounts over $1 million and now are trying to defend the indefensible.


"The number of 401(k) and IRA millionaires increased. The number of people with $1 million or more in their 401(k) increased to 180,000, up from 133,800 at the end of Q4, while the number of IRA millionaires increased to 168,100, up from 138,800 last quarter."

https://www.fidelity.com/bin-public...elease/quarterly-retirement-trends-050919.pdf

So Fidelity alone has 348,000 401(k) and IRA accounts worth over $1 million. You don't think a few of these could be teachers?

Fidelity has another 6 million 403(b) accounts for public employees and certainly a number of these have accounts worth over a million.
 
SS is a burden on taxpayers?

No, tax cuts are a burden on taxpayers because tax cuts end up resulting in revenue declines, which result in spending cuts, which result in increased out of pocket expenses for taxpayers.

BTW - since the start of the Russia Tax Cut you love so much, the DJIA has grown at its slowest pace since the Great Recession.

Yes, Social Security is the largest item in the federal government and soon contributions will not be enough to cover benefits. Tax cuts don't affect Social Security.

What increased out of pocket expenses do you pay as a result of the tax cut?
 
The 14% was the only data I could find regarding teachers. You didn't believe that number but cited the "half inherited it" and others are due to a second earner. You pick and choose the numbers you reject and those you believe even when from the same source.

Again with this 14% number.

I don't know why you keep going back to that when you're not even confident in what that 14% entails.

This is what I mean when I say you're lazy; you just don't want to do the work to make your argument whole, choosing instead to rely on sophistry and others to do that work for you.

Nothing you're doing here is defensible. It's all scatterbrained chum. And you continue to negotiate with your own position, continually redefining the parameters and moving the goalposts.

So that 14%...that's just teachers? And of that 14%, half already inherited millions, and you don't know anything about the remainder. But what we do know is that many of them didn't save $1M on their own; they had help because of dual-income households where the combined savings tops $1M. But because you have no standards for anything, you just dumbly say that teacher, who is married to a higher earner, saved $1M for retirement, and you leave it at that because, as I said, you're lazy and you hold yourself to no standards for anything. Hence the apples/oranges thing I said earlier, about how you would argue they're the same because they're both fruit. But we both know they're not the same, and that boiling them down to that low a level is intellectually dishonest and exactly what sophistry is.


So Fidelity alone has 348,000 401(k) and IRA accounts worth over $1 million. You don't think a few of these could be teachers?

So this is the grand design of what you do here; you rely on faulty assumptions to paper over the factual deficits that exist in your argument.

Now, could a few be teachers? Maybe. But their retirement accounts could be padded with inheritance, or contributions outsized because of a dual-income household where their partner makes significantly more than them, so they can contribute more of their paycheck to their retirement plan.

Of course, these are all questions you should have asked yourself before bringing this shit into the thread. Now, what happens is that you throw an assumption out there, disguised as conventional wisdom, despite no evidence, research, or support of your assumption. It's basically, "I want this assumption to be the standard because it's the only way my argument makes sense". It's fucking bullshit accommodation. I reject that.

You need to come armed with facts, not assumptions, and not "conventional wisdom" that are really just your piss-poor instincts and judgment.
 
Yes, Social Security is the largest item in the federal government and soon contributions will not be enough to cover benefits. Tax cuts don't affect Social Security.

Well, easy fix for that, Flash...remove the cap on taxable income and apply the tax to all forms of income. Simple. Quick. Easy. Problem solved.


What increased out of pocket expenses do you pay as a result of the tax cut?

Well, you can just look at what happened in Kansas from 2012-2017; Brownback cut taxes, that resulted in massive deficits, which resulted in cuts to state colleges, which resulted in the Board of Regents raising tuition to cover the drop in funding, which resulted in students and their families having to borrow more, which means they pay more in interest on those loans they had to take out.

As for the most recent Russia Tax Cut that you love so much, you can just take a look at the latest Trump and Centrist budgets that cut Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. Cuts to those programs increase out of pocket expenses for people on them.

Also, the Russia Tax Cut reduced revenue:

Actual receipts as reported by Treasury.

The Russia Tax Cut started 1/2/18. Here's how it depressed revenue:

Receipts
Jan-2017: $344,069
Feb-2017: $171,713
Mar-2017: $216,584
Apr-2017: $455,605
May-2017: $240,418
Jun-2017: $388,660
Jul-2017: $232,040
Aug-2017: $226,311
Sep-2017: $348,722
Oct-2017: $235,341
Nov-2017: $208,374
Dec-2017: $325,797
Total-2017: $3,393,634

Receipts
Jan-2018: $361,038
Feb-2018: $155,623
Mar-2018: $210,832
Apr-2018: $510,447
May-2018: $217,075
Jun-2018: $316,278
Jul-2018: $225,266
Aug-2018: $219,115
Sep-2018: $343,559
Oct-2018: $252,692
Nov-2018: $205,961
Dec-2018: $312,584
Total-2018: $3,330,470
-$63,164 from previous year

Receipts
Jan-2019: $339,980
Feb-2019: $167,265
Mar-2019: $228,811
Apr-2019: $535,545
May-2019: $232,064
Jun-2019: $333,952
Jul-2019: $251,348
Aug-2019: $227,965
Sep-2019: $374,028
Oct-2019: $245,520
Nov-2019: $225,185
Dec-2019: $335,805
Total-2019: $3,497,468

+103,834 from 2017, a 3% gain

Inflation from 2017 to 2019 was 4.3%

So the net loss is about -1.3% from two years of tax cuts.

The tax cut didn't increase revenue.
 
All this is bullshit because the increase to their income has been far greater than their share of the tax burden.

In other words, their tax burden has not increased commensurate with their share of income gains.

Good. When their share of the federal income taxes is twice their share of the income, they are paying more than their fair share.
 
Good. When their share of the federal income taxes is twice their share of the income, they are paying more than their fair share.

Again, it's not the share of income, it's the fact that their share of the income has increased, and over time, that also increases their share of the wealth.

You understand that, right? That if a rich person increases their income by 50%, like they did since the Great Recession, then their share of the wealth also grows, albeit more slowly, doesn't it?

So wouldn't it be fair to raise their taxes by the same amount they raise their income?
 
So this is the grand design of what you do here; you rely on faulty assumptions to paper over the factual deficits that exist in your argument.

Now, could a few be teachers? Maybe. But their retirement accounts could be padded with inheritance, or contributions outsized because of a dual-income household where their partner makes significantly more than them, so they can contribute more of their paycheck to their retirement plan.

No, they couldn't. A 403(b) or 401(k) includes the employee and employer contributions. Any inheritance or spousal income are going to be put in an IRA or other investments, not the employee's retirement account.

The amount they contribute is determined by their employer--not how much they can afford to contribute.

That is like saying your Social Security account includes inheritance or spousal income. You contribute 6.2% and your employer contributes 6.2%.

I think you believe there are teachers with this amount, you just don't like to admit you are wrong.
 
No, they couldn't. A 403(b) or 401(k) includes the employee and employer contributions. Any inheritance or spousal income are going to be put in an IRA or other investments, not the employee's retirement account.

Right, but isn't it possible that the 401k or 403b have outsized contributions made to it because the teacher's spouse is a high earner, so that dual income affords those teachers (or whomever) the opportunity to increase their contributions to their retirement plans that they otherwise wouldn't be able to do if they were the sole earner in that household?


The amount they contribute is determined by their employer--not how much they can afford to contribute.

What? no. You can put as much or as little of your check into your 401k retirement account as you want. The amount contributed by the employer, which I think is what you're talking about, is determined by the employer and usually matches up to 10%. But if you wanted to put 80% of your paycheck into your retirement savings, you absolutely can, particularly if you have a spouse who is a high earner.


That is like saying your Social Security account includes inheritance or spousal income. You contribute 6.2% and your employer contributes 6.2%.

SS is pay-go, meaning you aren't paying for your own private, individual SS account. You're paying either into the Trust, which is used to pay for current enrolls, or you're paying for direct benefits being exercised right now. But you, personally, do not have a SS account that is yours, that is a lockbox or something.


I think you believe there are teachers with this amount, you just don't like to admit you are wrong.

Sure, teachers who inherited millions or are married to a high earner. Half of those millionaires inherited it...and we still don't know how many of the remaining half are married to high-earners. So what we are left with is just guessing, and I'm not a fan of guessing.
 
Right, but isn't it possible that the 401k or 403b have outsized contributions made to it because the teacher's spouse is a high earner, so that dual income affords those teachers (or whomever) the opportunity to increase their contributions to their retirement plans that they otherwise wouldn't be able to do if they were the sole earner in that household?

They usually can depending on the plan. Since the money put in those accounts is not taxed I know people who increased their contributions to save on income taxes. However, if you did the investment calculator, you can easily see how a person contributing for 40 years with an 7% average growth rate (the S&P average 10%) can reach the million dollar mark with no additional contributions.

What? no. You can put as much or as little of your check into your 401k retirement account as you want. The amount contributed by the employer, which I think is what you're talking about, is determined by the employer and usually matches up to 10%. But if you wanted to put 80% of your paycheck into your retirement savings, you absolutely can, particularly if you have a spouse who is a high earner.

I think we are talking about two separate types of accounts. A voluntary account allows you to put as much or little as you choose although there are limits. The 2017 tax cuts increase the amount people can contribute to $19,500 for 401(k) and 403(b) accounts.

Teachers under these plans are not voluntary just like their pension contributions are not voluntary. In my state college faculty could choose the state pension which pays benefits at retirement based on salary and years of service. Or, we could choose a 403(b) which went into an investment account chosen by the employee. I chose Fidelity. I contributed 6.65% and the state contributed 8.5%. I could contribute more if I chose but not less. I could manage the investments myself or with the assistance of a representative from Fidelity.

Unfortunately, many states do not have this option and teachers are stuck with pensions which are in trouble in many states because of poor investments. Many of these pensions seldom give raises to retired teachers and have become big burden on some state and city budgets.

SS is pay-go, meaning you aren't paying for your own private, individual SS account. You're paying either into the Trust, which is used to pay for current enrolls, or you're paying for direct benefits being exercised right now. But you, personally, do not have a SS account that is yours, that is a lockbox or something.

I understand how SS works. But my point is that if you have a spouse who works or get a large inheritance, this will not be shown in your SS contributions or benefits. You might be entitled to higher benefits if you spouse was entitled to higher benefits, but your contributions and benefits are not affected by spousal income or inheritance.

Sure, teachers who inherited millions or are married to a high earner. Half of those millionaires inherited it...and we still don't know how many of the remaining half are married to high-earners. So what we are left with is just guessing, and I'm not a fan of guessing.

You still misunderstand. The amount in your retirement account does not include any inheritance or spousal income. While some choose to put more into their account from their salary, most do not. Those people I am familiar with who have $1 million in their accounts did not contribute extra because, unlike most teachers, we also paid SS so we had both coming out of our paychecks and needed all our income.

Guessing a number is not necessary. We know it is in the thousands or hundreds of thousands which proves my original point that many teachers have a retirement account with $1 million or more. It is not such a hard fact to believe. If Fidelity has 348,000 retirement accounts with over $1 million, 1% of those could easily be teachers which means there are 3,480.

Or, since you keep citing half of those inherited their money you seem to believe that source which said 14% of 8 million. If we take away 13% of that 14% we get 1% of 8 million which is 80 thousand.
 
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