Same-sex couples begin marrying

WinterBorn said:
The Ten Commandments?? Really?

Lets see, you said "Yet our nations value system, social mores, and even law follows the Ten Commandants of Christianity almost to the letter....".

1.You shall have no other gods before Me.

2.You shall not make idols.

3.You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

4.Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

5.Honor your father and your mother.

6.You shall not murder.

7.You shall not commit adultery.

8.You shall not steal.

9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10.You shall not covet.


Take another look at that list. The 200 years we have endured were obviously not due to our values, social mores and laws following the 10 Commandments. In fact, until you get to #6 you have nothing that our laws follow at all.

Yes, murder and stealing are illegal. But there have been laws against murder and stealing longer than there have been a 10 Commandments. Adultery and false witness (lying) have been against the law in some places over the 200 years, but it is certainly not universal in this country. In fact, lying is so commonplace in Washington DC that we don't even pay attention to it anymore. Know anyone who has been busted for "coveting" lately? Or in say....the last 200 years?

And the first 4 are specific to one religion.
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Maybe you need to read the entire thread before you jump to conclusions....I won't explain everything all over again....

All ten are common to cultures all over the world to some degree of another....I didn't say murder or anything else was tolerated until Christ came along ....

The Ten Commandments, rather than being specific to Christianity are representative to hundreds of cultures, many of which never heard of JC.....

Whats you point ? Just because they were written down once does not mean the values and morality didn't exist until then..... of course they did or they
wouldn't have been written down in the Bible....someone wrote the words and created a story of how he believed they came to be...
 
It took communists to voice opposition to marriage being a subjugatory property exchange. Then it was interracial marriage, now SSM. Can guess you which side conservatives were on during all of these debates?
 
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NOVA said:
Then we'll agree to disagree....I think your view is narrow-minded....and ALL our law is based on Christian values, because of the very nature of the men that wrote them.

If American Indians looked at our laws, they would think they were written to reflect a great deal of the laws and morals they themselves live by...Indian Law
Those living by what you call 'common law' would think the same thing.....Common Law
And Christians the same thing.......Christian Law.

Even those that practice the Muslim faith could find something in common with our law.....maybe not quite as much as other, but some.

There is little difference no matter who is reading them.....I don't mean to imply that there is absolutely no difference, just that all would
find some common ground in the Ten Commandments.....because they are just common rules we live by as humans that are practically universal....

Almost every culture that exists had some kind of 'god' or 'gods' they looked to...worshiped and sacrificed to....respected and prayed to, etc....thats the first 4 commandments.
Honoring parents, law against murder and robbery, honoring your neighbors claim to his wives, lying.....that covers the last 6.....

Laws and social rules about all of this is common to almost every culture that exists.

Our founding fathers came from those that were exposed to Christian faith for generations....it was in their very nature and thats just the truth of it...and whether they
believed in the Christian god or Christ is irrelevant....the exposure to the morals and values throughout the continent was enough to mold their characters and thinking for life.
No matter what law, regulation, or moral judgement they agreed upon, it would be Christian in nature whether they or you want to recognize it...thats who they were no matter
what they choose to call themselves....you can pick your name, but you can't pick the family and people you descended from nor deny that heritage......
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:rolleyes:

By 'common law' I was not referring to laws of Native Americans. If you need the term 'common law' explained to you then you have no business talking about this subject as you are grossly ignorant of it. In the quoted text, Thomas Jefferson referred to the common law which is well understood then and now to refer to case law. Most ancient laws were developed through case/common law as there often was no legislature.

Again, our basic laws concerning murder and theft were developed long before our culture had been exposed to Christianity or the Bible. Neither Christianity nor the bible invented laws against murder and theft and they are not at all necessary to such laws.

The founders were mostly deists and doubted the divinity of Christ. They were quite clear in their desire to establish a secular government.
 
BTW, the pagans Jefferson referred to were not Native Americans but our cultural/legal ancestors, i.e., the pagans that inhabited the British Islands.
 
Sir Digby Chicken Caesar said:
:rolleyes:

By 'common law' I was not referring to laws of Native Americans. If you need the term 'common law' explained to you then you have no business talking about this subject as you are grossly ignorant of it. In the quoted text, Thomas Jefferson referred to the common law which is well understood then and now to refer to case law. Most ancient laws were developed through case/common law as there often was no legislature.

Again, our basic laws concerning murder and theft were developed long before our culture had been exposed to Christianity or the Bible. Neither Christianity nor the bible invented laws against murder and theft and they are not at all necessary to such laws.

The founders were mostly deists and doubted the divinity of Christ. They were quite clear in their desire to establish a secular government.
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Common law can be logically traced to before the time of Christ....Case law as you now want to call it can also.....they are the laws, morals and values that man
has lived by for thousands of years to some degree or another and put into writing in the Bible....obviously the American Indian lived by many of the very same
laws and moral values without benefit of the ever seeing a Bible....along with hundreds of other cultures.....

These "laws" are the product of generations upon generations of men....they may differ in detail but not so much in substance......
In Europe, these 'laws' were known as Christian laws, but they certainly were not new to mankind in general....
The founding fathers were products of European teaching and the customs and values that were adhered to for hundreds of years before they were born....
It was who they were and why they had the character they had, the ethics, the morals and values they had....they were born to it.....Christian by name.....
just about universal in their evolution.....and those are the values of the US....it can be no other way.

The governments powers and the powers of the people are whats secular and even then were influenced by their having been born and raised in this environment...

Its impossible to separate their natures from their actions and decisions, no matter what they called themselves concerning religion or their lack of it.....how they
viewed god or even denied god is irrelevant.....
Just as you cannot go to China and claim to be Chinese....you are who you are by virtue of your nurturing no matter what you call yourself, you will
never be Chinese or think how they think or feel what they feel....
The Christian culture is woven into the fabric of the US at every level...its all over and obvious to me....from our monuments on down.

Now its time to put this dead horse to rest from my side....we won't change each others minds for the same reasons I just stated about who we are, and will always be.
 
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NOVA said:
Common law can be logically traced to before the time of Christ....Case law as you now want to call it can also.....they are the laws, morals and values that man
has lived by for thousands of years to some degree or another and put into writing in the Bible....obviously the American lived by many of the very same
law and moral and values without benefit of the ever seeing a Bible....along with hundreds of other cultures.....

These "laws" are the product of generations upon generations of men....they may differ in detail but not so much in substance......
In Europe, these 'laws' were known as Christian laws, but they certainly were not new to mankind in general....
The founding fathers were products of European teaching and the customs and values that were adhered to for hundreds of years before they lived....
It was who they were and why they had the character they had, the ethics, the morals and values they had....they were born to it.....Christian by name.....
just about universal in their evolution.....and those are the values of the US....
The governments powers and the powers of the people are whats secular and even then were influenced by their having been born and raised in this environment...

Its impossible to separate their natures from their actions and decisions, no matter what they called themselves concerning religion or their lack of it.....how they
viewed god or even denied god is irrelevant.....
Just as you cannot go to China and claim to be Chinese....you are who you are by virtue of your nurturing no matter what you call yourself, you will
never be Chinese or think how they think or feel what they feel....
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Jefferson was not talking about Native Americans you senile fool.

Christian laws, WTF, are you even talking about?

Nevermind, you are way too stupid to hold up your end of a discussion on this topic.
 
NOVA said:
Maybe you need to read the entire thread before you jump to conclusions....I won't explain everything all over again....

All ten are common to cultures all over the world to some degree of another....I didn't say murder or anything else was tolerated until Christ came along ....

The Ten Commandments, rather than being specific to Christianity are representative to hundreds of cultures, many of which never heard of JC.....

Whats you point ? Just because they were written down once does not mean the values and morality didn't exist until then..... of course they did or they
wouldn't have been written down in the Bible....someone wrote the words and created a story of how he believed they came to be...
Click to expand...

Nearly half of the 10 Commandments have little or nothing to do with laws anywhere but in Judeo-Christian cultures.
 
WinterBorn said:
Nearly half of the 10 Commandments have little or nothing to do with laws anywhere but in Judeo-Christian cultures.
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Then you agree with my post....

I said, "The Ten Commandments, rather than being specific to Christianity are representative of hundreds of cultures, many of which never heard of JC....."

Now lets see if you're smarter thatn Dickby chickenshit....

Lets assume you are born to Christian parents and raised in a Christian community under a Christian value system and moral code.....

Can you ever rid yourself of that upbringing entirely....I say not...you will always be and think according to how you were raised, you will never be anything
other that what your formative years made you....
 
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NOVA said:
Then you agree with my post....

I said, "The Ten Commandments, rather than being specific to Christianity are representative of hundreds of cultures, many of which never heard of JC....."

Now lets see if you're smarter thatn Dickby chickenshit....

Lets assume you are born to Christian parents and raised in a Christian community under a Christian value system and moral code.....

Can you ever rid yourself of that upbringing entirely....I say not...you will always be and think according to how you were raised, you will never be anything
other that what your formative years made you....
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Your point has no relevance to anything anyone has said and does not support your original claim that "our value system, social mores, and even law follows the Ten Commandants of Christianity almost to the letter."

Only three have any connection to any laws we have and most of those would be conditional. That is, more often than not lying about someone is not a crime and legal prohibition against murder/killing (depending on the translation) depends on other factors. In fact, many Christians argue that killing is acceptable and even heroic. If by "to the letter" you mean that our laws share some of the letters used in ten commandment then... yeah "almost," once you do the translation.

As Jefferson argued, our legal traditions (our's does not mean those of Native Americans) were developed before there was any exposure to the bible.

Plus, many Christians on this board argue that the Torah is not even relevant to the discussion of Christianity. You seem to be so grossly ignorant that you imagine the Ten Commandments unique to Christianity. But that part of the bible is shared by Islam and Judaism. It's clearly more significant to the history of those people than it was to the pagan cultures of the British Islands and Western Europe. So it would be more accurate to say that our laws are based on Islam and the teachings of Mohammed.
 
Sir Digby Chicken Caesar said:
Your point has no relevance to anything anyone has said and does not support your original claim that "our value system, social mores, and even law follows the Ten Commandants of Christianity almost to the letter."

Only three have any connection to any laws we have and most of those would be conditional. That is, more often than not lying about someone is not a crime and legal prohibition against murder/killing (depending on the translation) depends on other factors. In fact, many Christians argue that killing is acceptable and even heroic. If by "to the letter" you mean that our laws share some of the letters used in ten commandment then... yeah "almost," once you do the translation.

As Jefferson argued, our legal traditions (our's does not mean those of Native Americans) were developed before there was any exposure to the bible.

Plus, many Christians on this board argue that the Torah is not even relevant to the discussion of Christianity. You seem to be so grossly ignorant that you imagine the Ten Commandments unique to Christianity. But that part of the bible is shared by Islam and Judaism. It's clearly more significant to the history of those people than it was to the pagan cultures of the British Islands and Western Europe. So it would be more accurate to say that our laws are based on Islam and the teachings of Mohammed.
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YOU quote my post and then have the balls to make the comments I've hi-lighted like you're telling us something I didn't already post ?

And I never said 'ours' meant those of Native Americans.....if you can't be truthful, just stfu....its getting boring and redundant to keep correcting your crap posts....
I did say the traditions and values of native Americans are similar to those of the 10 Commandments and they never heard of them or Christ or Christianity.
 
NOVA said:
YOU quote my post and then have the balls to make the comments I've hi-lighted like you're telling us something I didn't already post ?

And I never said 'ours' meant those of Native Americans.....if you can't be truthful, just stfu....its getting boring and redundant to keep correcting your crap posts....
I did say the traditions and values of native Americans are similar to those of the 10 Commandments and they never heard of them or Christ or Christianity.
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You clearly did not understand the quote from Jefferson's letter, the reference to common law or pagans. It's your crap post that have needed repeated correction.

Your points about native americans contradict your previous assertions and you are just babbling incoherently.

Yes, some of the things in the Bible and ten commandments are morally proper. But many are not and so our founders sought to create a secular state free of the burdens of religious dogma.
 
Sir Digby Chicken Caesar said:
You clearly did not understand the quote from Jefferson's letter, the reference to common law or pagans. It's your crap post that have needed repeated correction.

Your points about native americans contradict your previous assertions and you are just babbling incoherently.

Yes, some of the things in the Bible and ten commandments are morally proper. But many are not and so our founders sought to create a secular state free of the burdens of religious dogma.
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some of the things in the ten commandments are morally proper. But many are not ?

Is that so....what things in the Ten Commandments are not morally proper....

the reference to common law or pagans ?....

In your own words......what is your understanding of the reference to pagans...? What point was Jefferson making ?

Your knowledge of the culture of the American Indian is just about non-existent isn't it ?
About the same leve as you reading comprehension.....

Were they pagans ?

Explain yourself.
 
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NOVA said:
some of the things in the ten commandments are morally proper. But many are not ?

Is that so....what things in the Ten Commandments are not morally proper....

the reference to common law or pagans ?....

In your own words......what is your understanding of the reference to pagans...? What point was Jefferson making ?

Your knowledge of the culture of the American Indian is just about non-existent isn't it ?
About the same leve as you reading comprehension.....

Were they pagans ?

Explain yourself.
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I said some things in the Bible and ten commandments are morally proper but many are not. Try not to be so blatantly dishonest in your strawman arguments. There is no moral value in those commandments demanding allegiance to the Jewsih God. But there are parts of the bible that are just downright immoral, where God supposedly commands the chosen to engage in genocide and join them in it.

I already explained to you the reference to the common law and pagans. Are you seriously that dense? He was referring to the pagans that inhabitied the British Islands and Western Europe, who first developed the common law traditions we inherited/adopted.

Native Americans have nothing to do with anything I have said here and I did not say anything about their culture. They were brought into the discussion due to your comical confusion over Jefferson's letter. Are you drunk or are you just this out of it all the time?
 
Sir Digby Chicken Caesar said:
I said some things in the Bible and ten commandments are morally proper but many are not. Try not to be so blatantly dishonest in your strawman arguments. There is no moral value in those commandments demanding allegiance to the Jewsih God. But there are parts of the bible that are just downright immoral, where God supposedly commands the chosen to engage in genocide and join them in it.

I already explained to you the reference to the common law and pagans. Are you seriously that dense? He was referring to the pagans that inhabitied the British Islands and Western Europe, who first developed the common law traditions we inherited/adopted.

Native Americans have nothing to do with anything I have said here and I did not say anything about their culture. They were brought into the discussion due to your comical confusion over Jefferson's letter. Are you drunk or are you just this out of it all the time?
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All that clears up nothing....there is nothing in the commandments that is morally improper....nothing, even by todays standards.
The Bible is a history book....I don't think its immoral, its just telling us, in their way, what life was like thousands of years ago. Life was savage then and in many ways
life is savage today too....the use of 'god' was their way of explaining things they didn't understand, no different than the Muslims crying Allah is great while they lop
off the heads of infidels right now.

"The pagan civilizations of Bible times worshiped many gods. They had male and female deities, high and low gods, assemblies of gods, priests and priestesses, and temples and sacrifices. All the forces of nature that could not be controlled or understood were considered supernatural powers to be worshiped and feared. Most of the people of the ancient world worshiped more than one god. These gods were worshiped in the form of idols. This practice is called idolatry. The pagan nations made statues or images to represent the powers which they worshiped. Most of these idols were in the form of animals or men. Each civilization and culture had its own mythological structure, but these structures were often quite similar. The names of the gods may have been different, but their functions and actions were often the same. The most prominent myth to cross cultural lines was the fertility cycle.

I guess you thought pagans didn't worship any gods...but thats not the way it was....and those 'pagan gods' had very much to do with the development of what you call common law....only this common law is ancient.
you're the one that is dense.......

How do you know Jefferson was referring to the pagans that inhabited the British Islands or Western Europe? Laws were common to all cultures a thousand years before Jefferson....he was most likely referring to the common laws of England in his letters... laws influenced by Christian culture.

Common law existed before Christ, in every culture....
get the picture.....gods and common law....go together like bread and butter.

American Indians have everything to do with this discussion....they too had a common law, that governed their social structure, quite apart from Christianity, England or the pagans of Biblical times....

No matter how you cut it....the birth of this country was influenced by all of it....and because England was Christian, that had the most influence....and we still
established a secular form of government apart from the Christian cultural mores that rule our social community....don't confuse the two.
 
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