Serious Question: Was the Killing of the US Ambassador in Libya Morally Justifiable?

blackascoal

The Force is With Me
I know, all murder is bad.

That being said .. imagine if America had been attacked and destroyed by a foreign government.

Would the agents of that government who assisted the band of terrorists who destroyed the country and committed unspeakable acts of violence, beheadings, rape, murder and genocide .. would those agents be legitimate targets of American retaliation?
 
Serious answer, NO.

I could see an argument (even though I would disagree) for destroying the embassy, kidnapping the people and holding them. I do not see an argument for the murders.
 
I know, all murder is bad.

That being said .. imagine if America had been attacked and destroyed by a foreign government.

Would the agents of that government who assisted the band of terrorists who destroyed the country and committed unspeakable acts of violence, beheadings, rape, murder and genocide .. would those agents be legitimate targets of American retaliation?

Just call the Ambassador a fetus and then you can justify the murder. Simple really
 
Morally Justifiable no, Morally defensible maybe. This is kind of a continuation of "what's a legitimate target?" issues we've been having. The problem of course being that when America is just this big country a long way away, there's not much the average muslim in the street can do when America does things they don't like, so they protest, march, burn flags, and go after anything at hand. The ambassador was unfortunate enough to be "at hand".

When they were chanting "death to america" they meant it.
 
Morally Justifiable no, Morally defensible maybe. This is kind of a continuation of "what's a legitimate target?" issues we've been having. The problem of course being that when America is just this big country a long way away, there's not much the average muslim in the street can do when America does things they don't like, so they protest, march, burn flags, and go after anything at hand. The ambassador was unfortunate enough to be "at hand".

When they were chanting "death to america" they meant it.

They don't mean it. They love OWEbama. He got a Nobel prize and everything. Remember his Cairo speech? The Koran is just a peaceful book and its adherents just wall flowers meaning nobody any harm. I mean come on. Look how tolerant muslims are toward broads and queers. You got a love a religion that gets its members through the point of a knife
 
I know, all murder is bad.

That being said .. imagine if America had been attacked and destroyed by a foreign government.

Would the agents of that government who assisted the band of terrorists who destroyed the country and committed unspeakable acts of violence, beheadings, rape, murder and genocide .. would those agents be legitimate targets of American retaliation?
Yes. gov't on gov't. if a foeign gov't did what we did to Libya, you KNOW we'd be doing the revenge/justice thing.

I read about some arrests, but eveything is unclear -here's the latest:
http://www.lex18.com/news/four-arrests-in-libyan-attack
As Libya announced the first four arrests, the clearest picture yet emerged of a two-pronged assault with militants screaming "God is great!" as they scaled the consulate's outer walls and descended on the compound's main building.

The rampage killed the U.S. ambassador and three other Americans.

Eastern Libya's deputy interior minister, Wanis el-Sharef, said a mob first stormed the consulate Tuesday night and then, hours later, raided a safe house in the compound just as U.S. and Libyan security arrived to evacuate the staff. That suggested, el-Sharef said, that infiltrators within the security forces may have tipped off the militants to the safe house's location.

The attacks were suspected to have been timed to coincide with the 11th anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist strike in the United States, el-Sharef added, with the militants using the film protest by Libyan civilians to mask their action.

Killed in the attack were U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens, information management officer Sean Smith, and private security guards Glen Doherty and Tyrone S. Woods.

El-Sharef said four people were arrested at their homes Thursday, but he refused to give any further details. He said it was too early to say if the suspects belonged to a particular group or what their motive was. Libya's new prime minister, Mustafa Abu-Shakour, said authorities were looking for more suspects.

One of five private security guards at the consulate said the surprise attack began around 9:30 p.m. when several grenades that were lobbed over the outer wall exploded in the compound and bullets rained down.

The guard was wounded in the left leg from shrapnel. He said he was lying on the ground, bleeding and in excruciating pain when a bearded gunman came down the wall and shot him twice in the right leg, screaming: "You infidel, you are defending infidels!"

"Later, someone asked me who I was. I said I was the gardener and then I passed out. I woke up in hospital," said the guard, who spoke to The Associated Press from his bed at a Benghazi hospital. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he feared reprisals and reprimands from his employers.

Speaking at his Benghazi office, el-Sharef, who was running the Interior Ministry's operations room commanding security forces in the city during the attack, gave the most detailed account to date to come out of Libya of what happened the night of the attack. His version, however, leaves some questions unanswered and does not provide a definitive explanation on the motives behind the attack and the identity of the perpetrators.

No one has claimed responsibility for the attack.

Some Libyan officials have pointed the finger at a hardline Islamist militia, the Ansar al-Shariah Brigades, one of multiple Libyan militias operating in the city. A spokesman for the group lavishly praised the assault for "protecting the faith and fighting for the victory of God Almighty." But he said the Brigades "did not participate as an organization. This was a popular uprising."

Adding to the confusion surrounding the attack is that it targeted the United States, a nation that played a key role in ridding the oil-rich, mostly desert nation of dictator Moammar Gadhafi. Washington also took the lead in launching the months-long NATO air campaign that crippled the late leader's forces.

Stevens was credited by most Libyans with organizing a political front made up of opposition groups to unite the uprising against Gadhafi's 41-year rule, mediating tribal and regional disputes.

The Benghazi attack also underlined the precarious conditions in Libya nearly a year after Gadhafi's fall, with a weak central government, militias operating as local governments, a destabilizing proliferation of weapons, and militant groups - some inspired by al-Qaida - that are active under the government's radar.

Stevens and another American were killed in the consulate during the initial violence, as plainclothes Libyan security were evacuating the consulate's staff to the safe house about a mile away, el-Sharef said. The second assault took place several hours later and targeted the safe house - a villa inside the grounds of the city's equestrian club - killing two Americans and wounding a number of Libyans and Americans.

The crowd built at the consulate - a one-story villa surrounded by a large garden in an upscale Benghazi neighborhood - in several stages, El-Sharef said. First, a small group of gunmen arrived, then civilians angry over the film. Later, heavily armed men with armored vehicles, some with rocket-propelled grenades, joined and the numbers swelled to more than 200.

The gunmen fired into the air outside the consulate. Libyan security guarding the site pulled out because they were so outmanned. "We thought there was no way for the protesters to storm the compound, which had fortified walls," he said.

Libyan security advised the Americans to evacuate at that point, but the advice was ignored, he said. There was shooting in the air from inside the consulate compound, he said.

At this point, el-Sharef continued, the crowd stormed the compound. The consulate was looted and burned, while plainclothes security men were sent to evacuate the personnel.

Stevens probably died of asphyxiation following a grenade explosion that started a fire, el-Sharef said, echoing what the Libyan doctor to whom Stevens' body was taken told the AP on Wednesday.

His account was corroborated by local journalist Ibrahim Hadya, who was at the scene. He told the AP that the consulate was stormed just as the evacuation was under way, with staff members smuggled out a side door that opens to a street other than the one where the militants and protesters gathered.

U.S. officials have said attackers broke into the main consulate building around 10:15 p.m. and set the compound on fire. Amid the evacuation, Stevens became separated from others, and staffers and security who tried to find him were forced to flee by flames, smoke and gunfire. After an hour, according to U.S. officials, U.S. and Libyan officials drove the attackers from the consulate.

The next attack came hours later. Around 30 American staffers along with Libyans had been evacuated to the safe house while a plane arrived from Tripoli with a joint U.S.-Libyan security group that was to fly them back to the capital, el-Sharef said.

El-Sharef said the original plan was for a separate Libyan security unit to escort the evacuees to the airport. Instead, the joint unit went from the airport to the safe house, possibly because they were under the impression they were dealing with a hostage situation, he said. The militant attack coincided with the joint team's arrival at the safe house, he said.

That the attackers knew the safe house's location suggests a "spy" inside the security forces tipped off the militants, el Sharef said.

U.S. officials have not confirmed the account. They have spoken of an attack on the consulate's annex that killed two Americans, but said their report on the incident was still preliminary.

so what is all this?? So many players, some lieing no doubt, I think (IMHO) that Libyan gov't is so full of AQ, and "spies" that ist's impossible to seperate their gov't from AQ -my best guess, for what it's worth
 
I know, all murder is bad.

That being said .. imagine if America had been attacked and destroyed by a foreign government.

Would the agents of that government who assisted the band of terrorists who destroyed the country and committed unspeakable acts of violence, beheadings, rape, murder and genocide .. would those agents be legitimate targets of American retaliation?

Would your government be able to stop an angry mob?Would American troops shoot to kill their own people?

But, to the question. Since all killing is immoral then the question doesn't really work, but to allow some latitude, no. no. no. killing was not justifiable under any circumstances. That is not to say that we should not try to understand it.
 
Yes. gov't on gov't. if a foeign gov't did what we did to Libya, you KNOW we'd be doing the revenge/justice thing.

I read about some arrests, but eveything is unclear -here's the latest:
http://www.lex18.com/news/four-arrests-in-libyan-attack
As Libya announced the first four arrests, the clearest picture yet emerged of a two-pronged assault with militants screaming "God is great!" as they scaled the consulate's outer walls and descended on the compound's main building.

The rampage killed the U.S. ambassador and three other Americans.

Eastern Libya's deputy interior minister, Wanis el-Sharef, said a mob first stormed the consulate Tuesday night and then, hours later, raided a safe house in the compound just as U.S. and Libyan security arrived to evacuate the staff. That suggested, el-Sharef said, that infiltrators within the security forces may have tipped off the militants to the safe house's location.

The attacks were suspected to have been timed to coincide with the 11th anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist strike in the United States, el-Sharef added, with the militants using the film protest by Libyan civilians to mask their action.

Killed in the attack were U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens, information management officer Sean Smith, and private security guards Glen Doherty and Tyrone S. Woods.

El-Sharef said four people were arrested at their homes Thursday, but he refused to give any further details. He said it was too early to say if the suspects belonged to a particular group or what their motive was. Libya's new prime minister, Mustafa Abu-Shakour, said authorities were looking for more suspects.

One of five private security guards at the consulate said the surprise attack began around 9:30 p.m. when several grenades that were lobbed over the outer wall exploded in the compound and bullets rained down.

The guard was wounded in the left leg from shrapnel. He said he was lying on the ground, bleeding and in excruciating pain when a bearded gunman came down the wall and shot him twice in the right leg, screaming: "You infidel, you are defending infidels!"

"Later, someone asked me who I was. I said I was the gardener and then I passed out. I woke up in hospital," said the guard, who spoke to The Associated Press from his bed at a Benghazi hospital. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he feared reprisals and reprimands from his employers.

Speaking at his Benghazi office, el-Sharef, who was running the Interior Ministry's operations room commanding security forces in the city during the attack, gave the most detailed account to date to come out of Libya of what happened the night of the attack. His version, however, leaves some questions unanswered and does not provide a definitive explanation on the motives behind the attack and the identity of the perpetrators.

No one has claimed responsibility for the attack.

Some Libyan officials have pointed the finger at a hardline Islamist militia, the Ansar al-Shariah Brigades, one of multiple Libyan militias operating in the city. A spokesman for the group lavishly praised the assault for "protecting the faith and fighting for the victory of God Almighty." But he said the Brigades "did not participate as an organization. This was a popular uprising."

Adding to the confusion surrounding the attack is that it targeted the United States, a nation that played a key role in ridding the oil-rich, mostly desert nation of dictator Moammar Gadhafi. Washington also took the lead in launching the months-long NATO air campaign that crippled the late leader's forces.

Stevens was credited by most Libyans with organizing a political front made up of opposition groups to unite the uprising against Gadhafi's 41-year rule, mediating tribal and regional disputes.

The Benghazi attack also underlined the precarious conditions in Libya nearly a year after Gadhafi's fall, with a weak central government, militias operating as local governments, a destabilizing proliferation of weapons, and militant groups - some inspired by al-Qaida - that are active under the government's radar.

Stevens and another American were killed in the consulate during the initial violence, as plainclothes Libyan security were evacuating the consulate's staff to the safe house about a mile away, el-Sharef said. The second assault took place several hours later and targeted the safe house - a villa inside the grounds of the city's equestrian club - killing two Americans and wounding a number of Libyans and Americans.

The crowd built at the consulate - a one-story villa surrounded by a large garden in an upscale Benghazi neighborhood - in several stages, El-Sharef said. First, a small group of gunmen arrived, then civilians angry over the film. Later, heavily armed men with armored vehicles, some with rocket-propelled grenades, joined and the numbers swelled to more than 200.

The gunmen fired into the air outside the consulate. Libyan security guarding the site pulled out because they were so outmanned. "We thought there was no way for the protesters to storm the compound, which had fortified walls," he said.

Libyan security advised the Americans to evacuate at that point, but the advice was ignored, he said. There was shooting in the air from inside the consulate compound, he said.

At this point, el-Sharef continued, the crowd stormed the compound. The consulate was looted and burned, while plainclothes security men were sent to evacuate the personnel.

Stevens probably died of asphyxiation following a grenade explosion that started a fire, el-Sharef said, echoing what the Libyan doctor to whom Stevens' body was taken told the AP on Wednesday.

His account was corroborated by local journalist Ibrahim Hadya, who was at the scene. He told the AP that the consulate was stormed just as the evacuation was under way, with staff members smuggled out a side door that opens to a street other than the one where the militants and protesters gathered.

U.S. officials have said attackers broke into the main consulate building around 10:15 p.m. and set the compound on fire. Amid the evacuation, Stevens became separated from others, and staffers and security who tried to find him were forced to flee by flames, smoke and gunfire. After an hour, according to U.S. officials, U.S. and Libyan officials drove the attackers from the consulate.

The next attack came hours later. Around 30 American staffers along with Libyans had been evacuated to the safe house while a plane arrived from Tripoli with a joint U.S.-Libyan security group that was to fly them back to the capital, el-Sharef said.

El-Sharef said the original plan was for a separate Libyan security unit to escort the evacuees to the airport. Instead, the joint unit went from the airport to the safe house, possibly because they were under the impression they were dealing with a hostage situation, he said. The militant attack coincided with the joint team's arrival at the safe house, he said.

That the attackers knew the safe house's location suggests a "spy" inside the security forces tipped off the militants, el Sharef said.

U.S. officials have not confirmed the account. They have spoken of an attack on the consulate's annex that killed two Americans, but said their report on the incident was still preliminary.

so what is all this?? So many players, some lieing no doubt, I think (IMHO) that Libyan gov't is so full of AQ, and "spies" that ist's impossible to seperate their gov't from AQ -my best guess, for what it's worth

Remember that all of this is OWEdummy policy
 
Just call the Ambassador a fetus and then you can justify the murder. Simple really

It's just an extremely late term abortion.

Anyway, to answer the question.

1. I don't think it was Libyan nationalist groups who planned and executed that. Based on State Department statements that they believe that this was a terrorist response to drone attacks on Al Qaeda's number 2.

2. No, it wasn't justified. Especially under the excuse they used as cover, that stupid movie is absolutely not worth the lives of anybody.
 
taking the life of someone who raped and murdered your 12 year old daughter? I consider morally justified. those who say no, try living through it.
 
It's just an extremely late term abortion.

Anyway, to answer the question.

1. I don't think it was Libyan nationalist groups who planned and executed that. Based on State Department statements that they believe that this was a terrorist response to drone attacks on Al Qaeda's number 2.

2. No, it wasn't justified. Especially under the excuse they used as cover, that stupid movie is absolutely not worth the lives of anybody.

As you know and have already stated .. it wasn't about a movie.
 
They don't mean it. They love OWEbama. He got a Nobel prize and everything. Remember his Cairo speech? The Koran is just a peaceful book and its adherents just wall flowers meaning nobody any harm. I mean come on. Look how tolerant muslims are toward broads and queers. You got a love a religion that gets its members through the point of a knife
That nobel prize pretty much ruined the entire thing for me. They just kinda threw it at him for no real reason. Sellouts.
 
taking the life of someone who raped and murdered your 12 year old daughter? I consider morally justified. those who say no, try living through it.
How about the person you thought murdered your daughter? Not really, but you just thought they did? Is that justified?
That's why we have the courts system because people up close can't think strait. I have no problem with the death penalty but you have to have distance.
 
taking the life of someone who raped and murdered your 12 year old daughter? I consider morally justified. those who say no, try living through it.

There is a reason we have laws against vigilantism, vengeance has little to do with justice. Getting angry at an Ambassador because of crimes committed by another, how is it justified to kill somebody who didn't rape your daughter because your daughter was raped?
 
taking the life of someone who raped and murdered your 12 year old daughter? I consider morally justified. those who say no, try living through it.

I would want to kill someone who raped and murdered my daughter .. or who was responsible for it.

The morality of it would be an after-thought.
 
There is a reason we have laws against vigilantism, vengeance has little to do with justice. Getting angry at an Ambassador because of crimes committed by another, how is it justified to kill somebody who didn't rape your daughter because your daughter was raped?

Oooh can we get into a justice vs vengeance argument here? I love those. First define justice, is it to reconcile the wrong done? IS it to prevent future wrongs being done? Is it to balance the universe's scales? Then define how that is different in action from vengeance. I love these arguments, but then again, I'm a criminal justice major/
 
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