Should Exxon pay Punitive Damages?

Those are individual rights. Of people.

Corporations don't have rights.

What? I wasn't referencing that.

But corporations do have rights in the way that they are property of individuals. Some restrictions can be made, I believe, on what their board of directors does, but no one would buy stock in corporations if it meant that their money inside of the coporation was no longer protected by the constitution.
 
I mean, it would be illegal for the US government to simply liquidate a corporation without reparation to the stockholders, because it is the stockholders property.

Other property rights apply indirectly by the fact that the corporation is directly property of people.
 
You see? I don't believe the supreme court decision that stated that corporations actually ARE individuals is correct, but it doesn't give the government free reign to do whatever it wants with stockholder property.
 
Excessive fines? Hmm. Extreme damage to a very large area's ecosystem.

It is KNOWN that oil is toxic to the environment. If it can be shown that the owner of said oil engaged in irresponsible behavior, even if said irresponsible behavior amounts to not using rigor to choose a subcontractor to transport said toxic material, that owner is STILL responsible for the contamination of any area by said toxic material.

You cannot simply hire inept, or irresponsible third parties, and then claim innocence when said party causes damage. No more than you can claim innocence to murder when you hire a hitman.
 
"You cannot simply hire inept, or irresponsible third parties, and then claim innocence when said party causes damage. No more than you can claim innocence to murder when you hire a hitman."

There is a clear logical fallacy here and you know it. Anyway, I was referencing the filesharing case. Read the thread.
 
Which logical fallacy would that be?

It's the difference between murder and involuntary manslaughter, AC. A person hires a hitman TO KILL someone. With that specific intention. Exxon hired the person to pilot the ship, not to wreck it. It may somehow be considered negligent, but it's not even clear how much they knew about him. Isn't it illegal to ask on job applications whether or not someone drinks alcohol, anyway?
 
The concept of destroying a single individual to "make an example" is incompatible with a liberal democracy. It rings of barbarism. The law was designed to catch people who made hundreds of thousands profiting off of sharing illegal things in the 80's; what was caught by prosecutors was usually only a small amount of the violation. It doesn't apply today at all in filesharing. Sometimes, a penalty is so harsh and wrong that it just violates our very humanity, no matter what the crime was. This is a case, and it's morally bankrupt of you and evil to defend such clear barbarism.

Where did I defend it? I was actually attacking it. When it comes to the law I'm not misty-eyed, I see it for what it really is. It's about protecting of privilege and vested interest.

Watermark: said:
And anyone, the concept of upping punative damages to ridiculous levels to catch purported violations that you have no proof of is obviously also incompatible with liberal democracy.

General deterrence - whether in a criminal matter or a civll matter - in sentencing/judgement, requires no proof, it's an accepted part of the process.

Watermark: said:
Copyrights are not "property" in the usual since of the word. This is clear because they are even judged by an entirely different set of rules. The damages caused by filesharing are so trivial as to not even be worth the time to prosecute. I'm an author and even I realize that the copyright laws are merely a gift of society, it is not something I am owed.

You need to catch up on the notion of intellectual property rights, there's a lot going on. For example, in my jurisdiction there was a celebrated case on the definition of a form of soil in a wine-growing district and whether or not a particular party could claim to be producing grapes grown in that district when they were alongside but not perfectly geographically within it. It was a lawyers' banquet that case.

If you're an author you have a choice, publish for nothing or sell your work and its rights to the highest bidder. Copyright isn't a gift from society, it's part of the warp and weave of property rights running through society. You can waive them if you wish.
 
I mean, why should Exxon be punished for SOMEONE ELSE screwing them over?

It was an Exxon employee.

Exxon knowingly hired a dry drunk to pilot a supertanker in ecologically and economically sensitive State waters of Alaska. Ruining the livelhood of thousands of people, and virtually destroying a pristine ecosytem.

I'm not saying I know what the amount of the punitive damages should be. I wasn't on the jury, and didn't hear the facts of the case. But, they shouldn't be a slap on the wrist, and they should be substantial.
 
What? I wasn't referencing that.

But corporations do have rights in the way that they are property of individuals. Some restrictions can be made, I believe, on what their board of directors does, but no one would buy stock in corporations if it meant that their money inside of the coporation was no longer protected by the constitution.

Investors in corporations are protected by the law. Of course that doesn't mean it's totally safe, it's not, it can be lost by venality or incompetence.

Corporations aren't the property of individuals though, a corporation is essentially a collective interest, protected by the notion of limited liability. Another great con trick.
 
It's the difference between murder and involuntary manslaughter, AC. A person hires a hitman TO KILL someone. With that specific intention. Exxon hired the person to pilot the ship, not to wreck it. It may somehow be considered negligent, but it's not even clear how much they knew about him. Isn't it illegal to ask on job applications whether or not someone drinks alcohol, anyway?

Was Exxon hung on the concept of vicarious liability?
 
Investors in corporations are protected by the law. Of course that doesn't mean it's totally safe, it's not, it can be lost by venality or incompetence.

Corporations aren't the property of individuals though, a corporation is essentially a collective interest, protected by the notion of limited liability. Another great con trick.

It's not right to say that by investing money in a corporation your sending it into some kind of legal void where it has no constitutional protections.
 
You need to catch up on the notion of intellectual property rights, there's a lot going on. For example, in my jurisdiction there was a celebrated case on the definition of a form of soil in a wine-growing district and whether or not a particular party could claim to be producing grapes grown in that district when they were alongside but not perfectly geographically within it. It was a lawyers' banquet that case.

If you're an author you have a choice, publish for nothing or sell your work and its rights to the highest bidder. Copyright isn't a gift from society, it's part of the warp and weave of property rights running through society. You can waive them if you wish.


Intellectual "property" is gift granted by society. You created something society considers useful, so you are given a monopoly over its production for a period of time. It is not as actual property, which is protected by our constitution; congress could just abolish all patents and copyrights at any time it wishes, it couldn't do that with your house without reperations. This is the general rule in common law jurisdictions and has been proven in many cases. I disagree with the expansion of the concept into the realm that it is a natural right like free speech; it is not. It is a gift.

The "right of the author" is another concept that's French. I disagree with it. It's the reason we have 140 year copyrights for coporations, instead of the 20 years that the founders originally provided. A baby born today should see a book published today in the public domain sometime in their lifetime, IMHO. However, merely because we adopted that lengthy term of copyright, doesn't mean we have adopted the concept behind it, that a copyright is the same thing as actually owning something.

If it were actual property then "stealing" it would be punished by the same laws as petty theft - a 100 dollar fine, and you have to repay what you owe. Or grand larceny - a 1000 dollar fine, and maybe a month or two in prison. Not an excessive and barbaric fine.

General deterrence - whether in a criminal matter or a civll matter - in sentencing/judgement, requires no proof, it's an accepted part of the process.

It's prosecution for crimes the state has no evidence of. Besides, there's a very specific clause in our constitution that prevents excessive fines. If a violation is so trivial and so common that you have to put out capital or excessive punishments in order to protect it, then something is wrong with the law and how it is enforced, not the people violating it. Filesharing hasn't cost the recording industry a penny. It's a drop in the bucket out of their profits. It costs society more to go after it than we gain out of the protection.
 
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It's not right to say that by investing money in a corporation your sending it into some kind of legal void where it has no constitutional protections.

Let me clarify. Anyone's investment is protected to a degree. It's protected from criminal activity but not incompetence. You buy stock you are taking a gamble because you could lose the lot, although that's pretty unlikely. It's not a legal void, I didn't say it was.
 
The RIAA is like the buggy whip people anyway. The recording industry is almost useless. Artists get their money from touring primarily, a tangible, rival good, not from the 10 cents an album or whatever penance the recording studios decide to throw their way. The main purpose of the recording industries was to promote bands. With the advent of the internet, it's becoming easier and easier for artists to do that themselves.

Some bands, like Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead, are now going unsigned from the major labels and simply giving away their songs at their site, or encouraging donations for them. Recording industries are becoming somewhat of a hindrance. In time this will extend to bands that are lower in the radar, until recording industries are almost useless. I think the RIAA's fury at filesharing is misguided. They need to find newer ways to market their products; not waste millions on this filesharing folly.
 
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I'm drawing the line because my knowledge of copyright is now finished.

I will speculate that there is a difference between copyright and the broader idea of intellectual property rights. And all I can do now is speculate and suggest that - in my jurisdiction at least - copyright and IP are separating in terms of how the law views them. Fine detail and, as I said, outside my area of knowledge. I'd indebted to you for the information.

On general deterrence, I think it's created as a result of the intersection of penal theory, black letter law and political expediency and like it or not it exists and it's accepted as valid.
 
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