APP - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

[Don Quixote]

are dems ready to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory regarding health care...again

good grief, when will bho start cracking the whip over the congressional dems

 

[Damocles]

It's the Senate that remains recalcitrant, with the whip reporting that there is no way that "government option" will pass in the Senate, they don't have the votes, they never have and never will.

Whatever passes will not be the HR 3200 (or whatever number it is) that we seem to incessantly argue about here.

This leads BHO to suggest that he would rather sign some legislation even if it doesn't have this... which leads the Congressional Ds to say they won't vote for it....

Which all leads to even Dennis Kucinich to come out against the bill.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

It's the Senate that remains recalcitrant, with the whip reporting that there is no way that "government option" will pass in the Senate, they don't have the votes, they never have and never will.

Reconciliation.

 

[Damocles]

Reconciliation.

You can only have "reconciliation" with a bill that pays for itself within 6 years, the CBO reports that this bill will not and will add much to the deficit. This bill is not qualified for "reconciliation".

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Whatever passes will not be the HR 3200 (or whatever number it is) that we seem to incessantly argue about here.

This leads BHO to suggest that he would rather sign some legislation even if it doesn't have this... which leads the Congressional Ds to say they won't vote for it....

Which all leads to even Dennis Kucinich to come out against the bill.

I honestly think that there's no way a universal medicare scheme could've even gotten the thrashing that this complicated scheme has.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You can only have "reconciliation" with a bill that pays for itself within 6 years, the CBO reports that this bill will not and will add much to the deficit. This bill is not qualified for "reconciliation".

If it adds to the deficit, changes will be made. Reconciliation is what should happen. If the rules for reconciliation do not allow it, then the rules can be changed easily by simple majority.

 

[Damocles]

I honestly think that there's no way a universal medicare scheme could've even gotten the thrashing that this complicated scheme has.

I agree with that... It would get thrashed though. It's silly to have a Congressman actually sneering at the idea of reading such important legislation because he won't have two lawyers to help him interpret it, then expect it not to have some problems getting past the electorate...

 

[Cancel5]

Reconciliation.

reconnoiter

 

[Damocles]

If it adds to the deficit, changes will be made. Reconciliation is what should happen. If the rules for reconciliation do not allow it, then the rules can be changed easily by simple majority.

Please, how many times have we heard how non-partisan the CBO was when Bush was in office and they reported negatively on him?

 

[Damocles]

If it adds to the deficit, changes will be made. Reconciliation is what should happen. If the rules for reconciliation do not allow it, then the rules can be changed easily by simple majority.

And still according to the Whip they don't have the votes. Seriously. I don't think you are going to be able to get a bill with a "government option" to be swallowed by the Senate.

Making changes to the reconciliation rules would be foolish, such changes can be exploited later by a different political party. No matter how many times you may wish it, permanent majorities don't exist.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

And still according to the Whip they don't have the votes. Seriously. I don't think you are going to be able to get a bill with a "government option" to be swallowed by the Senate.

There's no way a bill without a government option is going to be swallowed by the senate. It would be a massive handout to insurance companies. If anything, it would be more difficult to pass. The Republicans are going to declare anything we write to be socialism no matter what (like they are now doing with co-ops), and I hope the Democrats realize that.

Making changes to the reconciliation rules would be foolish, such changes can be exploited later by a different political party. No matter how many times you may wish it, permanent majorities don't exist.

I'm willing to give the Republican party more power in the future to pass the most important liberal reform possible.

 

[Damocles]

There's no way a bill without a government option is going to be swallowed by the senate. It would be a massive handout to insurance companies. If anything, it would be more difficult to pass. The Republicans are going to declare anything we write to be socialism no matter what (like they are now doing with co-ops), and I hope the Democrats realize that.



I'm willing to give the Republican party more power in the future to pass the most important liberal reform possible.

It already is, they are working on a compromise that can pass in the Senate, it will not have a "government option" even if you think it is important.

I found Kucinich's arguments on Napolitano's radio show rather interesting as well. It may have a more difficult time than you think even in Congress. Plus, Congresspersons are looking to the next election and this pile of doo isn't going to get them hired. If they force unpopular legislation it will go negatively for them in the next election.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

If we do not pass anything, the Republicans are going to win in 2010. The Republicans know that. That's why they lie. That's why they don't care that the path they are taking American down is both disastrous and immoral. These moderate Democrats need to vote for it, or else they're going to be the ones losing their seats.

 

[Damocles]

If we do not pass anything, the Republicans are going to win in 2010. The Republicans know that. That's why they lie. That's why they don't care that the path they are taking American down is both disastrous and immoral. These moderate Democrats need to vote for it, or else they're going to be the ones losing their seats.

Then I guess you better start calling all the Moderate Ds.. because the reality is they'll be looking at their constituents' wishes and voting for their jobs.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

It already is, they are working on a compromise that can pass in the Senate, it will not have a "government option" even if you think it is important.

Not having the public option is going to damage the legislation a lot more than having it. If it has the public option, it can at least pass through reconcilliation. Without the public option, the progressive base will abandon it, and I doubt it gets thirty votes if it's even brought to floor.

I found Kucinich's arguments on Napolitano's radio show rather interesting as well. It may have a more difficult time than you think even in Congress. Plus, Congresspersons are looking to the next election and this pile of doo isn't going to get them hired. If they force unpopular legislation it will go negatively for them in the next election.

You're a pile of doo.

Not passing the legislation is what would lose them the election. The Democrats will be in dissarray, and their period of rule will rightly be over. The blue dogs who voted for this will be thanked by conservatard constiuents by voting for the Republitards they wanted all along anyway. And hopefully they don't get elected back, and we build the next coalition with real Democrats. We don't need the trash in the center of the country; the demographics of this country are changing to the point it's going to be impossible for the Republicans to compete with the decade.

 

[Damocles]

Personally I think that the Rs will gain either way, people do not like this no-check government where too many pieces of far-reaching legislation are attempted or have passed without any constituent input.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Then I guess you better start calling all the Moderate Ds.. because the reality is they'll be looking at their constituents' wishes and voting for their jobs.

The moderate D's are the ones in the swing seats. When they destroy our voter base, they're going to be the ones to pay.

 

[Damocles]

Not having the public option is going to damage the legislation a lot more than having it. If it has the public option, it can at least pass through reconcilliation. Without the public option, the progressive base will abandon it, and I doubt it gets thirty votes if it's even brought to floor.



You're a pile of doo.

Not passing the legislation is what would lose them the election. The Democrats will be in dissarray, and their period of rule will rightly be over. The blue dogs who voted for this will be thanked by conservatard constiuents by voting for the Republitards they wanted all along anyway. And hopefully they don't get elected back, and we build the next coalition with real Democrats. We don't need the trash in the center of the country; the demographics of this country are changing to the point it's going to be impossible for the Republicans to compete with the decade.

You have convinced yourself that the majority feel like you, that is always a mistake. The majority are fickle and change very often because of the squishy middle that moves with emotion rather than reason.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You have convinced yourself that the majority feel like you, that is always a mistake. The majority are fickle and change very often because of the squishy middle that moves with emotion rather than reason.

Exactly damo. It's not about the positions you hold. It's about looking strong, it's about looking like the party with the ideas. It's about having the nads, and Democrats have never had nads. Their only ideology is compromise. Your own party defeating itself looks stupid; Democrats learned this in 1993 (although losing as badly as in 1994 would be a pretty amazing result).

If the bill passes and goes into action, people will at least see it isn't the monster that you guys painted it as, and the Republican attack ads will seem absurd. If it doesn't pass, you're part of the party that supported the monster that Republicans invented with their imagination. Whether or not you voted for it.

 

[Damocles]

Exactly damo. It's not about the positions you hold. It's about looking strong, it's about looking like the party with the ideas. It's about having the nads, and Democrats have never had nads. Their only ideology is compromise. Your own party defeating itself looks stupid; Democrats learned this in 1993 (although losing as badly as in 1994 would be a pretty amazing result).

If the bill passes and goes into action, people will at least see it isn't the monster that you guys painted it as, and the Republican attack ads will seem absurd. If it doesn't pass, you're part of the party that supported the monster that Republicans invented with their imagination.

This bill will not go into action for more than 5 years. Your own argument fails because you didn't read the legislation. If they pass this legislation right before the election cycle, it will remain one of the largest "oops" moments for a political party talked about for a long time to come. I'm cool with that. I hope all the Ds in Congress believe, like you do, that ignoring what their constituency tells them is the way to "win" when it is done right at the opening of an election cycle...