Some questions: Question #2. (A much more involved question.)

[Knuckles Neanderthal]

1) Do you think "maximizing productivity" is a good thing?
Yes of course. As long as the product and service is still top notch.

2) Do you think people, in general, would rather work less so that they can enjoy the off-work activities a bit more.
Yes people would like a 4 day work week but would not like reduced pay. So if it meant reduced pay you'd see people taking a 2nd job.

 

[christiefan915]

Question #2

If this topic interests you, please see the first question.

The chief bugaboo here, and everywhere I have ever discussed this topic, is that increasing productivity by using more machines, robots, and computers...will create an unacceptable increase in "unemployment."

Let me first discuss this "unemployment" for a bit...then ask my second question:

While considering this issue when I first did (almost three decades ago) I noticed an anomaly in the expression “unemployment problem”...an ironic almost cavalier consideration of that situation. “Unemployment” (having no work to do) and “problem” (being annoyed with that state of affairs) just doesn’t compute. Unemployment, as I view it, is not a problem at all. Unemployment is the reason we all look forward to weekends, holidays, and vacations so much. Unemployment affords us all time to play more golf or tennis; to read, write, wash the car, tend to the house and garden, spend more time with the family, or lie around in a hammock doing nothing more productive than training a couple of trees to bend in toward each other. So, not only is unemployment not a problem, it is the stuff of dreams; an object of pursuit; the reason, if you will, for the long lines at the lottery counters.

People WANT unemployment!

Now, for sure, “not having enough money to buy things” IS a problem; an onerous one, and more than likely the problem we are actually considering when apparently discussing unemployment! They go hand-in-hand, do unemployment and not having enough money to get by. So much so that we tend to confuse one with the other—or worse, to consider them to be one.

BUT THEY ARE NOT! They are two separate problems, or more exactly they are two separate conditions. One, not having enough money, a very serious problem indeed—the other, unemployment, a much sought after blessing.

That takes a lot more development before it becomes a fully baked cake (which I will attempt to do)...but first a question...two actually:

FORGETTING ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF EITHER ACTIVITY FOR NOW:

1) Do you think "maximizing productivity" is a good thing?

2) Do you think people, in general, would rather work less so that they can enjoy the off-work activities a bit more.

REMEMBER...WHEN YOU ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS...PUT ASIDE THE CONSEQUENCES FOR NOW.

We will get to that presently.

I'd say yes to both.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I'd say yes to both.

Me too, and the same answers I thought I would get from most.

As I said...the Internet never fails to surprise.

 

[Ross Dolan]

1. No

2. Yes

I'm comfortable with the idea that maximizing productivity,
and I would add efficiency to that,
is a very good thing.

#2 is a bit harder.

1) Yes but as guno hinted at efficient and max productivity is better. You can "maximize productivity" with a very inefficient system.

2) yes i think that's true

I'm not sure if more productivity is a good thing in and of itself, but without high levels of productivity we would get outcompeted by developing nations with lower labor costs.

I'd say yes to both.

If you get a chance...take a look at this. this.

It explains a bit of what my position is...without any questions.

 

[Yakuda]

If you get a chance...take a look at this. this.

It explains a bit of what my position is...without any questions.

Your thoughts on the matter are idealistic I think but very attractive. People struggle with envisioning something so foreign to them. The only experience humans have with leisure time is temporary. It's tough to get people to think beyond their experiences.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Your thoughts on the matter are idealistic I think but very attractive. People struggle with envisioning something so foreign to them. The only experience humans have with leisure time is temporary. It's tough to get people to think beyond their experiences.

Thanks, Yakuda. You are certainly correct when you say they are idealistic...and I realize that. I am more interested in moves that might head us in that direction...than in thinking that we will arrive there some time soon.

We won't.

We should. Humans deserve more elective time...and I think most will use that time wisely. Doing less "work" is not the way I think most will go...but the work they do will be more productive toward making their lives more rewording.

I also agree that it is very, very tough to get people to think beyond their experience...or extensions of their experience.

 

[Yakuda]

Thanks, Yakuda. You are certainly correct when you say they are idealistic...and I realize that. I am more interested in moves that might head us in that direction...than in thinking that we will arrive there some time soon.

We won't.

We should. Humans deserve more elective time...and I think most will use that time wisely. Doing less "work" is not the way I think most will go...but the work they do will be more productive toward making their lives more rewording.

I also agree that it is very, very tough to get people to think beyond their experience...or extensions of their experience.

I'm not being contentious here but why do you think humans "deserve" more elective time? As to using the time wisely if they had it I couldn't disagree more.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I'm not being contentious here but why do you think humans "deserve" more elective time?

Whew. Thank the gods that you were not being contentious.

About the only answer I can give to your question, though, is: Why not? Humans worked for hundreds (actually thousands/tens of thousands) of years to develop...stuff (tools, machinery, eventually smart machines/robots/computers...in order for as much of the work that had to be done could be done more easily (so that they could have more time to do what they wanted to do)...and give the humans more time to do the things that machines, no matter how sophisticated, cannot do: Namely ENJOY LIFE.

As to using the time wisely if they had it I couldn't disagree more.

Perhaps you are restricting "using the time wisely" to "using the time wisely as I (Yakuda) see it to be."

I am damn near sure MOST people will use the time wisely as THEY see "wisely"...which is almost the only thing they can do. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

 

[Yakuda]

Whew. Thank the gods that you were not being contentious.

About the only answer I can give to your question, though, is: Why not? Humans worked for hundreds (actually thousands/tens of thousands) of years to develop...stuff (tools, machinery, eventually smart machines/robots/computers...in order for as much of the work that had to be done could be done more easily (so that they could have more time to do what they wanted to do)...and give the humans more time to do the things that machines, no matter how sophisticated, cannot do: Namely ENJOY LIFE.



Perhaps you are restricting "using the time wisely" to "using the time wisely as I (Yakuda) see it to be."

I am damn near sure MOST people will use the time wisely as THEY see "wisely"...which is almost the only thing they can do. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

It's not a great reason but a reason.

Everybody uses their time wisely based on their own opinion, that's not in question. The question is are the outcomes wise for us. Believe.me I spent many years doing something many times a day I was sure was wise but thank God i woke up one day and realized my opinion was wrong.

I enjoy life every much even though I spend time making a living.

 

[Ross Dolan]

It's not a great reason but a reason.

Everybody uses their time wisely based on their own opinion, that's not in question. The question is are the outcomes wise for us. Believe.me I spent many years doing something many times a day I was sure was wise but thank God i woke up one day and realized my opinion was wrong.

So have I...and I suspect so has lots and lots of people. I suspect that is related to the fact that as I got older...I realized my mother and father were getting wiser.

I enjoy life every much even though I spend time making a living.

So do many people. If you were given the opportunity to have more "leisure time"...you might very well use it "making a living." I, personally, always loved what I was doing (or I would leave the job)...and "enjoyed life" while I was working for a living.

I am sure many people feel that way. But even if the idealistic thing I have in mind here ever came to fruition, LOTS of people would want more than just whatever is provided for everyone. And in order to get that...they would "work for the MORE."

Even people with limited skills might do that. It would be their free time...certainly they could use it (figuratively) working for a living. If so, imagine what a gardener might cost to someone with great wealth...compared with what a gardener now earns by toiling for someone with wealth.

 

[Yakuda]

So have I...and I suspect so has lots and lots of people. I suspect that is related to the fact that as I got older...I realized my mother and father were getting wiser.


So do many people. If you were given the opportunity to have more "leisure time"...you might very well use it "making a living." I, personally, always loved what I was doing (or I would leave the job)...and "enjoyed life" while I was working for a living.

I am sure many people feel that way. But even if the idealistic thing I have in mind here ever came to fruition, LOTS of people would want more than just whatever is provided for everyone. And in order to get that...they would "work for the MORE."

Even people with limited skills might do that. It would be their free time...certainly they could use it (figuratively) working for a living. If so, imagine what a gardener might cost to someone with great wealth...compared with what a gardener now earns by toiling for someone with wealth.

I think you just have a more positive view of human nature than I do. Nothing wrong with that I guess.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I think you just have a more positive view of human nature than I do. Nothing wrong with that I guess.

Perhaps.

But you are surprising me. There is a lot more to you than I supposed earlier on.

This conversation we are having in more than one thread...is one of the most interesting that I've had on the Internet.

 

[Yakuda]

Perhaps.

But you are surprising me. There is a lot more to you than I supposed earlier on.

This conversation we are having in more than one thread...is one of the most interesting that I've had on the Internet.

Perhaps

Why? When people are reasonable I have no problem being reasonable but if when they want to sling shit I'm up for it.

That's a sad commentary of the Internet. Lol

 

[Ross Dolan]

Perhaps

Why? When people are reasonable I have no problem being reasonable but if when they want to sling shit I'm up for it.

That's a sad commentary of the Internet. Lol

It may be sad...

...but it accurately reflects the Internet.

I actually enjoy getting a bit testy at times...especially with people with whom I am in significant difference, (read that, political difference).

Most of it is just busting balls. I am a golfer...and golfers learn not to take things others say very seriously. Busting balls is a major part of golfing.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Toynbee explained it better.