Special interests’ on both sides in health fight

Yurt said:
dude.....the slippery slope argument is not about those who publically want something to happen, but can't make it happen now, so they introduce something watered down.....

if you had any knowledge in debate, you would know that when an opponent expressly states a stated desire, but acknowledges the inability to achieve that desire unless they take smaller steps, that such smaller steps are up for debate as it relates to intent and thus a real possible outcome......vs........a slippery slope possible outcome that the opponent THINKS may occur regardless of whether the other side wants this or not, and most often the other side's argument is:

we do not want that outcome....slippery slope.....

your stupidity is:

we want that outcome....slippery slope

it is no longer a slippery slope dumbass when your opponent has expressly said they want they goal and the step is but a milestone to that goal.....

get some education besides wiki
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There's a difference between incrementalism and the slippery slope. Incrementalism is getting what you can now and working to get everything that you want a step at a time. The legislative process invites incrementalism because it is extremely difficult to do anything otherwise. This healthcare reform bill, from the perspective of those that actually want single-payer (in truth, not a whole hell of a lot of people), is an incremental step in the right direction.

The slippery slope is something else. The slippery slope is an argument that doing X will inevitably lead to Y. Once you proceed down the slippery slope you inevitably reach the bottom and cannot turn back. This healthcare reform bill will lead to nothing more than what is in the bill. There is no additional inevitable outcome. It's not a slippery slope.
 
Dungheap said:
The public option only leads down the road to single-payer if it works. If private insurers really offer a better product for a better price, single-payer won't happen. In the end, the opposition to the public option is simply worried that it will actually work.
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that is not the case here....while private insurers will still be around, despite some falsehoods othewise.....while private insurers will be able to offer to different plans than the government plan, despite some falsehoods otherwise....

this is about getting people used to the idea of a single payer system.....to lead them, step by step.....that is the express intent of many dems.....

i don't believe the opposition is worried that it will actually work.....they are worried that this bill, as they have stated, will allow them to get the necessary VOTES in the future to make a single payer system a reality.....
 
Dungheap said:
There's a difference between incrementalism and the slippery slope. Incrementalism is getting what you can now and working to get everything that you want a step at a time. The legislative process invites incrementalism because it is extremely difficult to do anything otherwise. This healthcare reform bill, from the perspective of those that actually want single-payer (in truth, not a whole hell of a lot of people), is an incremental step in the right direction.

The slippery slope is something else. The slippery slope is an argument that doing X will inevitably lead to Y. Once you proceed down the slippery slope you inevitably reach the bottom and cannot turn back. This healthcare reform bill will lead to nothing more than what is in the bill. There is no additional inevitable outcome. It's not a slippery slope.
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have you read every footnote and every page and you know this for a fact.....

granted you make a good slippery slope argument...but this is not a slippery slope issue....this is a stated intent and a stated intent that this bill allows it.....be in the future is irrelevent....all they have to do is put in some footnote....and bam.....
 
Yurt said:
that is not the case here....while private insurers will still be around, despite some falsehoods othewise.....while private insurers will be able to offer to different plans than the government plan, despite some falsehoods otherwise....

this is about getting people used to the idea of a single payer system.....to lead them, step by step.....that is the express intent of many dems.....

i don't believe the opposition is worried that it will actually work.....they are worried that this bill, as they have stated, will allow them to get the necessary VOTES in the future to make a single payer system a reality.....
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So basically, your position is that Medicare put us on the slippery slope to single-payer. That's a long fucking slope.
 
Yurt said:
have you read every footnote and every page and you know this for a fact.....

granted you make a good slippery slope argument...but this is not a slippery slope issue....this is a stated intent and a stated intent that this bill allows it.....be in the future is irrelevent....all they have to do is put in some footnote....and bam.....
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What in the hell are you talking about? A footnote? You think they're going to slip single-payer into this bill in a footnote? That's just plain silly.

I know for an absolute fact that single-payer is nowhere in this bill and cannot be achieved through this bill.
 
Dungheap said:
What in the hell are you talking about? A footnote? You think they're going to slip single-payer into this bill in a footnote? That's just plain retarded.

I know for an absolute fact that single-payer is nowhere in this bill and cannot be achieved through this bill.
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Corrected for accuracy.
 
Dungheap said:
What in the hell are you talking about? A footnote? You think they're going to slip single-payer into this bill in a footnote? That's just plain silly.

I know for an absolute fact that single-payer is nowhere in this bill and cannot be achieved through this bill.
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try reading some famous scotus footnotes.....then get back to me...
 
Onceler said:
I don't disagree that both sides have engaged in the "slippery slope" argument at times.

Why are you changing the topic, though? We're talking about the healthcare proposal right now. Or are you just trying to find hypocrisy wherever you can? Is that the mission here?
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You know he isn't. You are the one who speaks directly of incrementalism, oddly enough we were speaking specifically of this policy, and that you think that Obama is right, that you must take it in small steps to reach your ultimate goal, one that apparently you share.
 
Damocles said:
You know he isn't. You are the one who speaks directly of incrementalism, oddly enough we were speaking specifically of this policy, and that you think that Obama is right, that you must take it in small steps to reach your ultimate goal, one that apparently you share.
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Damo, I have put everything out in the open here. As you know & say, I have said that large changes in our healthcare system have to be incremental. I have also said that yes, many liberals hope for single payer someday.

THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS A SLIPPERY SLOPE. In order for their to be a single-payer system in this country, it will have to be legislated, period.

What about that is so very hard to get for you on the right?
 
Onceler said:
Damo, I have put everything out in the open here. As you know & say, I have said that large changes in our healthcare system have to be incremental. I have also said that yes, many liberals hope for single payer someday.

THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS A SLIPPERY SLOPE. In order for their to be a single-payer system in this country, it will have to be legislated, period.

What about that is so very hard to get for you on the right?
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I fully understand your position.

Why would it be so difficult for you to understand that others do as well? That this is just the first step on a long journey towards what you actually want isn't that hard for us to gather considering you, as well as many of the leaders who will at some point be voting on this, have actually mapped it out.
 
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