The Assassination of Julius Caesar

Threedee said:
So, an even larger and more tyrannical state is the correct solution?
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I dont think caesar ultimately would have been a monarch, though he did like some of the trappings of it.

by the time caesar came around, there was no republic to lose. It was already a show.
 
10 days said:
I dont think caesar ultimately would have been a monarch, though he did like some of the trappings of it.

by the time caesar came around, there was no republic to lose. It was already a show.
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I honestly think that Octavian simply became what Caesar planned to become. There was no comparison to the Triumvirates and Principate with the later stages of the Republic.
 
The difficulty was that Roman democracy was incompatible with dominating so many other peoples. It was very proper to see off the mass-murderer Caesar, but, by that stage, all it could lead to was Civil War and a continuing tyranny under a democratic show. Trumpf, clearly, is hardly in Caesar's league, but I think American imperialism presents much the same problems, basically.
 
Penderyn said:
The difficulty was that Roman democracy was incompatible with dominating so many other peoples. It was very proper to see off the mass-murderer Caesar, but, by that stage, all it could lead to was Civil War and a continuing tyranny under a democratic show. Trumpf, clearly, is hardly in Caesar's league, but I think American imperialism presents much the same problems, basically.
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I believe Grind was proposing a 'solution' to the American 'Problem'. Trying to gather his Conspirators into action. (Unfortunately, I don't think Red Team know who 'Caesar' is, and I don't think they know where Rome is, ... or the Timeline that is being expressed. So they sit there, sucking their thumbs, thinking ... 'Grind is stoned again') Just Sad!
 
Jack said:
I believe Grind was proposing a 'solution' to the American 'Problem'. Trying to gather his Conspirators into action. (Unfortunately, I don't think Red Team know who 'Caesar' is, and I don't think they know where Rome is, ... or the Timeline that is being expressed. So they sit there, sucking their thumbs, thinking ... 'Grind is stoned again') Just Sad!
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Like it, I really do!
 
Penderyn said:
Apparently, as an educated Roman. Caesar didn't actually say, 'Et tu Brute' - being an educated Roman, he spoke Greek.
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Uhhhh...Caesar spoke a very pure form of Classical Latin, as well as vulgar latin. Yes he spoke and was literate in Greek but almost all upper class Romans were educated in Greek. It's not like he spoke Greek as a lingua franca.

Having said that Caesar was a sexual omnivore and he sure liked pretty Greek boys. Pretty like Watermark does.
 
Threedee said:
Too little, too late, but, so so glad that Caesar got fucking stabbed like that. If that could have previously happened to Marius and Sulla, things might have worked-out better.
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Not if you're referring to the end of the Republic. You seem to have some pretty anachronistic views about the Roman Republic.
 
10 days said:
caesar ruled. The senators were the deep state oligarchs of the day. Hail caesar.
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Meh...can't agree with that completely either. To have a "Deep State" you need an entrenched bureaucracy and the Roman Republic did not have much in the way of a civil service. The Senate was certainly a "Good ole boy" oligarchy but there was nothing deep state about it.

Caesar was killed because he thought he could replace a degenerate and incompetent Republic, that was created to govern a small city State and not an international empire, with a centralized autocratic government without the consent of the Roman political class. He misjudged the Roman political class and it cost him his life. Octavian didn't make the same mistake. Though the Principate was certainly an autocracy Octavian dressed it in the customs and traditions and institutions of the Republic even though in reality Octavian/Augustus had all the power. This was enough though to appease the political class and Augustus ruled till he was an old man and died in his bed of old age and natural causes. Something that rarely happened to Roman Emperors.
 
Threedee said:
Marius and Sulla caused damage on a far greater scale than the Grachi, the assassins (of Tiberius Gracchus), or the First Triumverate.
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That's certainly true of Marius but that was largely due to the law of unintended consequences. When the Marian reforms permitted the Capite Censi to serve in the legions it was unintentionally a death blow to the Republic. The Republic had little choice though than to adopt the Marian reforms or be over ran by Germanic Hordes.

This however is not as true of Sulla as Sulla's constitution was geared at preserving the Republic, most notably the perks and prevlliges of the Senatorial Class. Sulla probably stalled the inevitable collapse by 10 to 20 years. Sulla was no revolutionary and was intensely conservative. Having said that when Sulla marched on Rome and usurped power and made himself Dictator he set a precedent that Caesar and Octavian used to kill the Republic. Which was good for Rome as the Republic desperately needed to be put down.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
That's certainly true of Marius but that was largely due to the law of unintended consequences. When the Marian reforms permitted the Capite Censi to serve in the legions it was unintentionally a death blow to the Republic. The Republic had little choice though than to adopt the Marian reforms or be over ran by Germanic Hordes.

This however is not as true of Sulla as Sulla's constitution was geared at preserving the Republic, most notably the perks and prevlliges of the Senatorial Class. Sulla probably stalled the inevitable collapse by 10 to 20 years. Sulla was no revolutionary and was intensely conservative. Having said that when Sulla marched on Rome and usurped power and made himself Dictator he set a precedent that Caesar and Octavian used to kill the Republic. Which was good for Rome as the Republic desperately needed to be put down.
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One can sympathize with Sulla, but, he didn't have to allow himself to be driven into a frenzy by Marius being a dick to him. There was no need to march on Rome, except to satisfy his ego. Marius is more to blame for being the instigator. Obviously, Marius' political and military departures from the past had their structural ramifications. I'd be more inclined to forgive him if he hadn't started a civil war with Sulla for literally no reason.
 
Threedee said:
One can sympathize with Sulla, but, he didn't have to allow himself to be driven into a frenzy by Marius being a dick to him. There was no need to march on Rome, except to satisfy his ego. Marius is more to blame for being the instigator. Obviously, Marius' political and military departures from the past had their structural ramifications. I'd be more inclined to forgive him if he hadn't started a civil war with Sulla for literally no reason.
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It’s lost to history what afflicted Marius during the time period but he was clearly insane and it was a sad ending for one of the greatest Romans. I don’t think Sulla had much choice about marching on Rome. Had he not his career would have been over.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
It’s lost to history what afflicted Marius during the time period but he was clearly insane and it was a sad ending for one of the greatest Romans. I don’t think Sulla had much choice about marching on Rome. Had he not his career would have been over.
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Well, Cincinnatus and Diocletian had no problem simply being farmers.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Uhhhh...Caesar spoke a very pure form of Classical Latin, as well as vulgar latin. Yes he spoke and was literate in Greek but almost all upper class Romans were educated in Greek. It's not like he spoke Greek as a lingua franca.

Having said that Caesar was a sexual omnivore and he sure liked pretty Greek boys. Pretty like Watermark does.
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I had to chew through enough of De Bello Gallico for 'O' Level to know about Caesar's Latin, though, fair play, I think the Vergil was worse. I liked Greek! :)
 
Penderyn said:
I had to chew through enough of De Bello Gallico for 'O' Level to know about Caesar's Latin, though, fair play, I think the Vergil was worse. I liked Greek! :)
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You poor bastard. I tried reading the English translation of it. Was Caesar that big a megalomaniac or was it just the Roman writing style to refer to yourself in the first person?

I wish I had studied basic Latin and Greek before I started my pre-med major at Uni. It certainly would have helped with terminology. I currently work with a colleague from Greece. What an uncouth sounding language. It's almost as irritating as Hebrew...the phlegm ball language.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You poor bastard. I tried reading the English translation of it. Was Caesar that big a megalomaniac or was it just the Roman writing style to refer to yourself in the first person?

I wish I had studied basic Latin and Greek before I started my pre-med major at Uni. It certainly would have helped with terminology. I currently work with a colleague from Greece. What an uncouth sounding language. It's almost as irritating as Hebrew...the phlegm ball language.
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Latin is also hugely useful with 'scholarly' words in English (as is Greek with science). The difficulty, really, is to know just how close to the way people actually spoke is classical Latin. Caesar was a politician, and I'd guess his third-person stuff is a sort of self-build-up. The Greek culture was enormously more adventurous and exciting, but the society was almost Middle-Eastern in its masculine dominance. As my current Latin teacher says, the great point about the Romans is that they are the first people that give some picture of their daily life. It wasn't necessarily admirable, but it is interesting.
 
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