The biggest problem facing monotheism.

[Daylight63]

Bottom line is that no matter how far back you dial the clock, even into the decade Jesus was crucified in the 30s AD, Christian written and oral tradition consistently depicts Jesus as some kind of divine figure.

Not sure why this is "surprising". EVERY single day we see people following regular humans as if they were divine. The followers of David Koresh certainly thought he was divine. The followers of COUNTLESS "holy men" throughout history all thought their leader was divine in some manner.

So basically it means NOTHING that they thought Jesus was divine contemporaneously with his existence. In fact it would be quite common.

It wasn't until LATER that the homoousiosness of Christ was established and codified precisely to displace the wildly differing VIEWS of the nature of that divinity.

 

[Daylight63]

Just as a reminder:

Special Pleading

Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification. Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason.

www.logicallyfallacious.com

 

[Cypress]

Not sure why this is "surprising". EVERY single day we see people following regular humans as if they were divine. The followers of David Koresh certainly thought he was divine. The followers of COUNTLESS "holy men" throughout history all thought their leader was divine in some manner.

So basically it means NOTHING that they thought Jesus was divine contemporaneously with his existence. In fact it would be quite common.

It wasn't until LATER that the homoousiosness of Christ was established and codified precisely to displace the wildly differing VIEWS of the nature of that divinity.

We have established that even the earliest Christians back into the decades of the 30s and 40s AD believed in the divine nature of Jesus

Not claiming there is some Earth shattering transcendent significance here. I'm just an armchair historian who takes satisfaction in getting the facts right. Atheist posters have told me for years, and even on this thread, that belief in Jesus' divinity was a later legendary account fabricated by writers six or seven decades later.

It's satisfying to correct that long standing misconception

 

[Daylight63]

We have established that even the earliest Christians back into the decades of the 30s and 40s AD believed in the divine nature of Jesus

Not claiming there is some Earth shattering transcendent significance here. I'm just an armchair historian who takes satisfaction in getting the facts right. Atheist posters have told me for years, and even on this thread, that belief in Jesus' divinity was a later legendary account fabricated by writers six or seven decades later.

It's satisfying to correct that long standing misconception

What long-standing misconception? Who thinks the Disciples doubted Jesus was somehow a divinely inspired being possibly divine himself?

What most people KNOW is that the nature of Jesus relation to God was what was developed over the centuries. The dualists and the other heresies had to be stamped out and that took centuries.

You seem to be of the opinion that what we see in Christianity today was present at the beginning. Nothing could be further from the truth. The faith as YOU know it is the product of centuries of coordination and work, orthodoxy and elimination of heterodoxy.

 

[Cypress]

What long-standing misconception? Who thinks the Disciples doubted Jesus was somehow a divinely inspired being possibly divine himself?

What most people KNOW is that the nature of Jesus relation to God was what was developed over the centuries. The dualists and the other heresies had to be stamped out and that took centuries.

You seem to be of the opinion that what we see in Christianity today was present at the beginning. Nothing could be further from the truth. The faith as YOU know it is the product of centuries of coordination and work, orthodoxy and elimination of heterodoxy.

You yourself have written that nothing was written about Jesus until 60 or 70 years later, were based on legend or fabrication, and told us nothing of the beliefs of the eyewitnesses and the earliest Christians. Those statements were incorrect. Like your statement that there is no Jewish understanding of an afterlife.

 

[Daylight63]

You yourself have written that nothing was written about Jesus until 60 or 70 years later,

Yeah? I might have been of by 30 years but that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with how the DIsciples considered Jesus. I mean, for fuck's sake, he performed MIRACLES in front of them. Why would I doubt they thought him somehow divine????????

were based on legend or fabrication, and told us nothing of the beliefs of the eyewitnesses and the earliest Christians.

In part. That's your problem. You don't understand subtlety. OF COURSE stuff in the Gospels is MADE UP. Again, the genealogies are OBVIOUSLY different. Stories and events happen differently sometimes not mentioned at all.

Not necessarily every word of it.

The narratives themselves SCREAM that they were written for specific audiences which explains the differences. So yeah, there's a lot that's made up.

Oh yeah, and the MIRACLES. I dont' believe that he raised anyone from the dead. I don't believe he walked on water. These stories were made up.

Those statements were incorrect.

And they have nothing whatsoever to do with the divinity of Jesus.

You consistently misrepresent my position in such a grotesque manner it beggars the imagination as to whether you read my posts or just respond to random words.

 

[ZenMode]

Epistle to the Philkipians 2 5:11, A hymn which claims a divine nature of Jesus

Excellent. So we have moved past the claim that the New Testament is only just later legendary accounts and fabrications, to an acknowledgment there is some real nuggets of historical data in the NT giving us insight into what the disciples said and thought.

Philippians seems to say the opposite:

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[ZenMode]

Philippians seems to say the opposite:

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

@Cypress

The only part meant to bold was part of verse 6. Not sure why everything else was bold.

 

[Cypress]

Philippians seems to say the opposite:

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Read it again. It says Jesus is in very nature a God, but took the form of a servant in appearance and likeness a man. That is pretty classic Christian Christology. Are you not familiar with Christianity?

 

[Cypress]

@Cypress

The only part meant to bold was part of verse 6. Not sure why everything else was bold.

I wrote that the early Christian literature reported that Jesus was of some kind of divine nature.

I never wrote that he was coequal and coeternal with God the Father.

You yourself said in antiquity many humans could be considered to have a divine nature or divine power.

Whether he was actually God the father in human form is a different question , and the first place that seems to be explicitly stated is in Gospel of John.


The bottom line is none of the earliest Christian writing, going back to the 30s and 40s AD, depict Jesus as a regular human teacher and rabbi.

 

[Cypress]

@Cypress

The only part meant to bold was part of verse 6. Not sure why everything else was bold.

I wrote that the early Christian literature reported that Jesus was of some kind of divine nature.

I never wrote that he was coequal and coeternal with God the Father.

You yourself said in antiquity many humans could be considered to have a divine nature or divine power.

Whether he was actually God the father in human form is a different question , and the first place that seems to be explicitly stated is in Gospel of John.


The bottom line is none of the earliest Christian writing, going back to the 30s and 40s AD, depict Jesus as a regular human teacher and rabbi.

Even the respected atheist New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman says that the hymn in Philippians 2 6-11 unmistakably depicts Jesus as a divine being.

 

[Daylight63]

Belief in the divine "agency" or divinity of a "holy man" is absolutely nothing new. People can be mistaken.

Joseph Smith's followers to this day believe he found tablets in the woods he translated using magic stones. These followers were willing to face death in Nauvoo and most other places they moved to in the early days, such was their belief.

David Koresh's followers thought he was Jesus. Many were willing to die for him.

Shoko Ashahara's followers were willing to kill for him as he was considered by them to be divine.

Jim Jones' followers obviously believed what he preached and were willing to die for it.

Heaven's Gate truly believed they were going to catch a spaceship and were willing to die for the belief.

Miller's followers were SO CERTAIN he was correct that even after being shown to be WRONG many did not abandon him and ultimately came up with entire new religions based off the disappointment.

 

[Daylight63]

The stories of Jesus' life follow standard mythology tropes that were so well known in the ancient world that early Church fathers (Justin Martyr) had to come up with the concept of "Diabolical Mimicry" to explain why the NARRATIVE STRUCTURE of JESUS LIFE matched SO MANY of the old pagan stories.

If the stories are inherently true why would they be so similar to ancient pagan concepts that would have been known to the authors? Was it indeed true that the devil anticipated Christ's coming to earth and created the evil pagan "mimics" BEFORE Christ showed up as the Mimicry hypothesis goes?

Or could it be a sign that a significant part of the gospels was created for religions reasons based around a kernel of a possibly real preacher at the time?