The Case Against College Education

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The Case Against College Education
By Ramesh Ponnuru Wednesday, Feb. 24, 2010


Even in these days of partisan rancor, there is a bipartisan consensus on the high value of postsecondary education. That more people should go to college is usually taken as a given. In his State of the Union address last month, President Obama echoed the words of countless high school guidance counselors around the country: "In this economy, a high school diploma no longer guarantees a good job." Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell, who gave the Republican response, concurred: "All Americans agree that a young person needs a world-class education to compete in the global economy."

The statistics seem to bear him out. People with college degrees make a lot more than people without them, and that difference has been growing. But does that mean that we should help more kids go to college — or that we should make it easier for people who didn't go to college to make a living?
(See the 10 best college presidents.)

We may be close to maxing out on the first strategy. Our high college drop-out rate — 40% of kids who enroll in college don't get a degree within six years — may be a sign that we're trying to push too many people who aren't suited for college to enroll. It has been estimated that, in 2007, most people in their 20s who had college degrees were not in jobs that required them: another sign that we are pushing kids into college who will not get much out of it but debt.
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The benefits of putting more people in college are also oversold. Part of the college wage premium is an illusion. People who go to college are, on average, smarter than people who don't. In an economy that increasingly rewards intelligence, you'd expect college grads to pull ahead of the pack even if their diplomas signified nothing but their smarts. College must make many students more productive workers. But at least some of the apparent value of a college degree, and maybe a lot of it, reflects the fact that employers can use it as a rough measure of job applicants' intelligence and willingness to work hard.

We could probably increase the number of high school seniors who are ready to go to college — and likely to make it to graduation — if we made the K-12 system more academically rigorous. But let's face it: college isn't for everyone, especially if it takes the form of four years of going to classes on a campus.
(See pictures of the college dorm's evolution.)

To talk about college this way may sound élitist. It may even sound philistine, since the purpose of a liberal-arts education is to produce well-rounded citizens rather than productive workers. But perhaps it is more foolishly élitist to think that going to school until age 22 is necessary to being well-rounded, or to tell millions of kids that their future depends on performing a task that only a minority of them can actually accomplish.

The good news is that there have never been more alternatives to the traditional college. Some of these will no doubt be discussed by a panel of education experts on Feb. 26 at the National Press Club, a debate that will be aired on PBS. Online learning is more flexible and affordable than the brick-and-mortar model of higher education. Certification tests could be developed so that in many occupations employers could get more useful knowledge about a job applicant than whether he has a degree. Career and technical education could be expanded at a fraction of the cost of college subsidies. Occupational licensure rules could be relaxed to create opportunities for people without formal education.

It is absurd that people have to get college degrees to be considered for good jobs in hotel management or accounting — or journalism. It is inefficient, both because it wastes a lot of money and because it locks people who would have done good work out of some jobs. The tight connection between college degrees and economic success may be a nearly unquestioned part of our social order. Future generations may look back and shudder at the cruelty of it.
 
It may very well be the case that on the whole, too many people are going to college. However, as an individual, you'd be stupid to not go to college. Check out unemployment levels for college graduates as compared to those without. It isn't pretty.
 
I think it would be great to push for more technical and trades training. There are plenty of people who feel they have to go to college, whether they have the skills or the mindset for it or not.

We would be better served by many of them learning a technical skill or trade that does not necessarily require college.
 
It may very well be the case that on the whole, too many people are going to college. However, as an individual, you'd be stupid to not go to college. Check out unemployment levels for college graduates as compared to those without. It isn't pretty.
Your ignorance of economics shows itself here, and is representative of Libtards.
 
Not enough are going to college in my book. This tool writer is not the sharpest in the box by any stretch.
 
I think it would be great to push for more technical and trades training. There are plenty of people who feel they have to go to college, whether they have the skills or the mindset for it or not.

We would be better served by many of them learning a technical skill or trade that does not necessarily require college.

This...precisely this. I am a teacher and have been saying for years that everyone can't go to college. Everyone doesn't need to take high school courses geared for college admissions. Here is where the Europeans beat the tar out of us Americans. By the 7th or 8th grade they have identified kids and separate them as to vocational training classes and what we would call "college bound" training classes. A smart way to do things, IMO. We are the only country....I repeat "the only country" where you will routinely have kids with a room temperature IQ sitting right beside a kid with an IQ double that. Not cool.
 
This...precisely this. I am a teacher and have been saying for years that everyone can't go to college. Everyone doesn't need to take high school courses geared for college admissions. Here is where the Europeans beat the tar out of us Americans. By the 7th or 8th grade they have identified kids and separate them as to vocational training classes and what we would call "college bound" training classes. A smart way to do things, IMO. We are the only country....I repeat "the only country" where you will routinely have kids with a room temperature IQ sitting right beside a kid with an IQ double that. Not cool.

Germany has great trade schools.
Yet, I've seen far too many examples of super successful people who had high school teachers tell them they wouldn't amount to anything. Too many teachers are teaching becuase they couldn't cut it in other majors, so I significantly discount that line.
 
Not enough are going to college in my book. This tool writer is not the sharpest in the box by any stretch.

Top, there are plenty of kids who don't go to college that should. I will give you that.


40% don't get a degree within 6 years. If we took those people and put them into technical training or training for a trade, they would make more money and have a more stable career than they do with some college and more debt.
 
Top, there are plenty of kids who don't go to college that should. I will give you that.


40% don't get a degree within 6 years. If we took those people and put them into technical training or training for a trade, they would make more money and have a more stable career than they do with some college and more debt.

I have not dissagreement with that. I think plenty don't go due to cost or lack of direction from non degreed parents.
 
Top, there are plenty of kids who don't go to college that should. I will give you that.


40% don't get a degree within 6 years. If we took those people and put them into technical training or training for a trade, they would make more money and have a more stable career than they do with some college and more debt.


You'd need to get a sense of how many of that 40% don't get a degree because they couldn't hack it as opposed to myriad other reasons that one might drop out of college.

I think that the assumption that everyone has to go to college immediately out of high school is where we run into problems. Not everyone is ready at that age or knows why in the hell they are going to college other than the assumption that they are "supposed to."
 
I totally agree with Nigel, lots don't go because they played too much in hs. Lots drop out becuase they played to much in fresh/soph year. Lots are not mature enough at 17/18. One of mine turned down a scholarship to Stanford cause their wrestling team wasn't as good as Iowa's. Of course materialistic dad was pissed but it is what it is.
 
Please elaborate.
You obviously see the world as static, perhaps with laborers hand carving wheels out of oak for carts to be pulled by oxen instead of programming machines to stamp out steel wheels for automated hauling vehicles. Its the same mentality that the Democrats had to justify slavery in the early years of this country, and the same mentality they have now to justify unions and crappy public schools.
 
I learned a lot in college that I use in my profession and personal life...
Very little of it in Class.


I learned a LOT in my private prep school that I use in my work and personal life, all of it in class.
 
The income increase is more about expectations and the people you meet and associate with at this formative pierod of ones life.
 
You obviously see the world as static, perhaps with laborers hand carving wheels out of oak for carts to be pulled by oxen instead of programming machines to stamp out steel wheels for automated hauling vehicles. Its the same mentality that the Democrats had to justify slavery in the early years of this country, and the same mentality they have now to justify unions and crappy public schools.


So in saying that right-wing Republican conservative commentator Rammesh Ponnuru may very well be right (although I don't take a position one way or the other), I "obviously see the world as static" and adopt "the same mentality that the Democrats had to justify slavery . . . blah blah blah?" Nice. That makes a lots of sense, chuckles.
 
Yet, I've seen far too many examples of super successful people who had high school teachers tell them they wouldn't amount to anything. Too many teachers are teaching becuase they couldn't cut it in other majors, so I significantly discount that line.

I won't disagree with that since I have also seen some of the same type of people....not so good in high school but super successful. I also won't disagree with some other things that I have read in yours and Nigel's discussion about kids not being mature and such. The decision of the direction a high school age kid's education should take shouldn't be up to the teachers. And it isn't in the countries that use that process.

I am also all for holding teachers accountable and getting rid of bad ones. Like the situation up in New Hampshire right now. It might seem extreme to "fire them all" but there is the provision that they will hire up to half back that are considered the "best" ones. I don't have a problem with that as it seems that the school has been floundering about with no direction for several years now. Something has to be done.

But something needs to be done with this situation as well: "We are the only country....I repeat "the only country" where you will routinely have kids with a room temperature IQ sitting right beside a kid with an IQ double that." A situation brought about by a liberal mindset that thinks excluding that kid from my Algebra II class is somehow "taking away" from what he deserves. A situation that leads to class disruptions that repeatedly have to be handled thus taking away from valuable class time. Thus I have to ask, "What about what is being taken away from the kid who is interested in learning or at least sees it as his responsibility who has to endure the knuckleheads that are only in the class because the state thinks they need to be?"

We need changes in this country's education system...big ones. I don't think any politicians have the guts to make those needed changes because they will seem severe and seem to discriminate.
 
So in saying that right-wing Republican conservative commentator Rammesh Ponnuru may very well be right (although I don't take a position one way or the other), I "obviously see the world as static" and adopt "the same mentality that the Democrats had to justify slavery . . . blah blah blah?" Nice. That makes a lots of sense, chuckles.

You appear to be backing off your position that you took in post 2. Do you believe that 'too many go to college' or not? :pke:
 
I agree, biggest block to change is teacher unions.
That said, too many parents blame bad teachers for lazy or directionless kids.
 
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