The Case Against College Education

Your belligerence is obviously due to your embarrassment at exposing your ignorance of economics.

:rofl: :hand:

I will have to hand it to you SM, you (of all people) posting this is one of the funniest things I have seen on these forums. You are one of the most belligerent people on this forum, and you post THIS?

Too funny.
 
So because its hard, don't do it. I'm glad that I didn't have that philosophy when I was struggling through engineering school or making my first house payments.

Winter read exactly what I was writing. I am one of the old fashioned teachers who will jump through whatever hoops necessary to give you an "F" if that is what you earned. The point is that the state, not the teachers, is making it harder and harder to hold kids accountable. The state, not the teachers, is adopting a more liberal philosophy of "treat everyone the same." It sounds good but it doesn't work.

BTW, I am restraining myself from going off on a tangent about this being a public]/b] political message board. Winter and I disagree often enough but haven't ever have to resort to bad mouthing and name calling. I want to go off on that tangent....but I am trying to practive restraint. :)
 
I explained that in post 13. Perhaps you could point out where I mentioned Mr. Ponnuru, never mind called him a Democrat.


You called me a typical Democratic blahbidyblahblah for suggesting that Ponnuru, the author of the piece in the original post, may be right.

And perhaps you could give another shot at the logic behind your conclusion that I am ignorant of economics because what you've posted thus far suggests that you not only have a serious reading comprehension problem but also have a serious problem with logical reasoning.
 
Winter read exactly what I was writing. I am one of the old fashioned teachers who will jump through whatever hoops necessary to give you an "F" if that is what you earned. The point is that the state, not the teachers, is making it harder and harder to hold kids accountable. The state, not the teachers, is adopting a more liberal philosophy of "treat everyone the same." It sounds good but it doesn't work.
...

The system gets harder and harder to deal with every year because of the Democrats who control it. You'll just have to deal with it. But keep voting the Democrats in, by all means. :)
 

Once again you cherry-pick a quote out of context to make a point.

The entire post was:
"Bullshit?

You ignored the National Geographic article I linked and continued to post comments about homosexual acts in animals being about dominance.

You have cherry-picked numerous posts. You answer what you can deny or argue, and ignore that which makes a point you cannot counter.

You claim victory in a debate based solely on the fact that someone called you a name. You do this despite the fact that you call people names as often an almost anyone on this board.

And finally, it may be your fantasy that I have a hardon for you, but I have nothing but contempt for you. You make claims that have no basis in fact, and make demeaning remarks at others in order to try and overcome your own inferiority complex. "

I can understand not wanting to quote the entire post, but you should have at least quoted the entire sentence. LMAO



Absolutely no relation to the post I made about the hilarity of you posting claiming that belligerence showed they couldn't argue the point.
 
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The system gets harder and harder to deal with every year because of the Democrats who control it. You'll just have to deal with it. But keep voting the Democrats in, by all means. :)

You must know by now that I do not vote for the party. The democrats that I vote for are democrats like me, who want to make sure public education is funded but realize that changes need to be made. The republicans I vote for feel the same. I will say that it is getting harder and harder to find republicans who are supportive of funding public education and harder and harder to find democrats who see the areas where changes are needed. So thanks for the advice to "deal with it." That is exactly what I plan to do. :)
 
I think trades should be ramped up, but don't colleges have entrance requirements students have to meet?

"don't colleges have entrance requirements students have to meet?"

Seems like thats a question you should know the answer to, Mr. GED.....assuming you managed to get in a college....

If Mr. Jarod was getting interviewed for a job and was asked to write a short one page essay on why he would be an asset to that particular company....
they would throw him out on his ass....he couldn't write that essay and impress even a 15 year old.....

The quantity of college degrees being given out today, with little and sometimes no proof of actually being educated in some field, just cheapens that diploma/degree for everyone....
the very same thing that made a HS diploma useless in todays world...

These diplomas and degrees aren't even proof that the holders of them can even read, write, spell, or do simple math....and thats the sad state of it...
 
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"don't colleges have entrance requirements students have to meet?"

Seems like thats a question you should know the answer to, Mr. GED.....assuming you managed to get in a college....

If Mr. Jarod was getting interviewed for a job and was asked to write a short one page essay on why he would be an asset to that particular company....
they would throw him out on his ass....he couldn't write that essay and impress even a 15 year old.....

The quantity of college degrees being given out today, with little and sometimes no proof of actually being educated in some field, just cheapens that diploma/degree for everyone....
the very same thing that made a HS diploma useless in todays world...

These diplomas and degrees aren't even proof that the holders of them can even read, write, spell, or do simple math....and thats the sad state of it...


And get off my lawn !!!!!
 
"don't colleges have entrance requirements students have to meet?"

Seems like thats a question you should know the answer to, Mr. GED.....assuming you managed to get in a college....

If Mr. Jarod was getting interviewed for a job and was asked to write a short one page essay on why he would be an asset to that particular company....
they would throw him out on his ass....he couldn't write that essay and impress even a 15 year old.....

The quantity of college degrees being given out today, with little and sometimes no proof of actually being educated in some field, just cheapens that diploma/degree for everyone....
the very same thing that made a HS diploma useless in todays world...

These diplomas and degrees aren't even proof that the holders of them can even read, write, spell, or do simple math....and thats the sad state of it...


lols at the navy fag who doesn't have one
 
Once again you cherry-pick a quote out of context to make a point.

The entire post was:
"Bullshit?

You ignored the National Geographic article I linked and continued to post comments about homosexual acts in animals being about dominance.

You have cherry-picked numerous posts. You answer what you can deny or argue, and ignore that which makes a point you cannot counter.

You claim victory in a debate based solely on the fact that someone called you a name. You do this despite the fact that you call people names as often an almost anyone on this board.

And finally, it may be your fantasy that I have a hardon for you, but I have nothing but contempt for you. You make claims that have no basis in fact, and make demeaning remarks at others in order to try and overcome your own inferiority complex. "

I can understand not wanting to quote the entire post, but you should have at least quoted the entire sentence. LMAO



Absolutely no relation to the post I made about the hilarity of you posting claiming that belligerence showed they couldn't argue the point.

This is all that matters: "I have nothing but contempt for you.". :lol:
 
This is all that matters: "I have nothing but contempt for you.". :lol:

And its as accurate now as it was then.

It still has nothing to do with you providing me with a great laugh.



But thinking about old posts, recently you said something about not paying much attention to my posts or something like that?

Now that you have shown you remember what I wrote 6 weeks ago, I guess that particular claim is history, huh?



:pke:
 
You must know by now that I do not vote for the party. The democrats that I vote for are democrats like me, who want to make sure public education is funded but realize that changes need to be made. The republicans I vote for feel the same. I will say that it is getting harder and harder to find republicans who are supportive of funding public education and harder and harder to find democrats who see the areas where changes are needed. So thanks for the advice to "deal with it." That is exactly what I plan to do. :)
Someday you'll realize like I did about 20 years ago that the two words "conservative" and "Democrat" cannot possibly go together to describe the same person. And its gotten much, much worse since Clinton.
 
This...precisely this. I am a teacher and have been saying for years that everyone can't go to college. Everyone doesn't need to take high school courses geared for college admissions. Here is where the Europeans beat the tar out of us Americans. By the 7th or 8th grade they have identified kids and separate them as to vocational training classes and what we would call "college bound" training classes. A smart way to do things, IMO. We are the only country....I repeat "the only country" where you will routinely have kids with a room temperature IQ sitting right beside a kid with an IQ double that. Not cool.

Maybe this has been discussed later but do you think it's fair to kids who may be late bloomers that it is chosen for them in the 7th or 8th grade what type of future career path they will be on?
 
The Case Against College Education
By Ramesh Ponnuru Wednesday, Feb. 24, 2010


Even in these days of partisan rancor, there is a bipartisan consensus on the high value of postsecondary education. That more people should go to college is usually taken as a given. In his State of the Union address last month, President Obama echoed the words of countless high school guidance counselors around the country: "In this economy, a high school diploma no longer guarantees a good job." Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell, who gave the Republican response, concurred: "All Americans agree that a young person needs a world-class education to compete in the global economy."

The statistics seem to bear him out. People with college degrees make a lot more than people without them, and that difference has been growing. But does that mean that we should help more kids go to college — or that we should make it easier for people who didn't go to college to make a living?
(See the 10 best college presidents.)

We may be close to maxing out on the first strategy. Our high college drop-out rate — 40% of kids who enroll in college don't get a degree within six years — may be a sign that we're trying to push too many people who aren't suited for college to enroll. It has been estimated that, in 2007, most people in their 20s who had college degrees were not in jobs that required them: another sign that we are pushing kids into college who will not get much out of it but debt.
(Comment on this story.)

The benefits of putting more people in college are also oversold. Part of the college wage premium is an illusion. People who go to college are, on average, smarter than people who don't. In an economy that increasingly rewards intelligence, you'd expect college grads to pull ahead of the pack even if their diplomas signified nothing but their smarts. College must make many students more productive workers. But at least some of the apparent value of a college degree, and maybe a lot of it, reflects the fact that employers can use it as a rough measure of job applicants' intelligence and willingness to work hard.

We could probably increase the number of high school seniors who are ready to go to college — and likely to make it to graduation — if we made the K-12 system more academically rigorous. But let's face it: college isn't for everyone, especially if it takes the form of four years of going to classes on a campus.
(See pictures of the college dorm's evolution.)

To talk about college this way may sound élitist. It may even sound philistine, since the purpose of a liberal-arts education is to produce well-rounded citizens rather than productive workers. But perhaps it is more foolishly élitist to think that going to school until age 22 is necessary to being well-rounded, or to tell millions of kids that their future depends on performing a task that only a minority of them can actually accomplish.

The good news is that there have never been more alternatives to the traditional college. Some of these will no doubt be discussed by a panel of education experts on Feb. 26 at the National Press Club, a debate that will be aired on PBS. Online learning is more flexible and affordable than the brick-and-mortar model of higher education. Certification tests could be developed so that in many occupations employers could get more useful knowledge about a job applicant than whether he has a degree. Career and technical education could be expanded at a fraction of the cost of college subsidies. Occupational licensure rules could be relaxed to create opportunities for people without formal education.

It is absurd that people have to get college degrees to be considered for good jobs in hotel management or accounting — or journalism. It is inefficient, both because it wastes a lot of money and because it locks people who would have done good work out of some jobs. The tight connection between college degrees and economic success may be a nearly unquestioned part of our social order. Future generations may look back and shudder at the cruelty of it.
He had me there till the last paragraph. My wife's degree is in hotel/restaurant management. She's not exactly working at Motel 6 or iHop either.
 
You must know by now that I do not vote for the party. The democrats that I vote for are democrats like me, who want to make sure public education is funded but realize that changes need to be made. The republicans I vote for feel the same. I will say that it is getting harder and harder to find republicans who are supportive of funding public education and harder and harder to find democrats who see the areas where changes are needed. So thanks for the advice to "deal with it." That is exactly what I plan to do. :)
Though I agree with the authors basic tenet that a college education is not for everyone I think our public education system is often unfairly criticized. Is it our schools that are failing our children or is it their empty headed parents who are more concerned about how their kids perform in football then in math that are failing our children?

Blaming our schools has become a major cop out. When will parents be held accountable? When will the students be held accountable? Is it a failure of the public school or teachers in that school that the bulk of parents in that community either don't give a shit about their kids education or are just completely clueless about their responsibility as parents? Is it their fault if those schools are stuffed by emptied headed, lazy kids who lack the self discipline to do the work?

How many of these parents who bemoan the state of public education are just really projecting their own failure for the responsibility of educating their children?
 
I think it would be great to push for more technical and trades training. There are plenty of people who feel they have to go to college, whether they have the skills or the mindset for it or not.

We would be better served by many of them learning a technical skill or trade that does not necessarily require college.


Republicans, conservatives, and their clintonista-democratic allies have outsourced most of our blue collar jobs. Back in the day a high school grad could have a nice middle class life working at the auto-parts plant or the textile mill.

That shit all got outsourced by the phony free trade cabal.


I'm seeing nurses being brought from the phillippines into the U.S. by healthcare conglomerates to compete against american nurses for wages. A race to the bottom. Pitting american workers against people who will come over here and work for half the wages, keep their mouth shut, and not ask for more money and won't unionize. I'm not saying there isn't a need for skilled blue collar work. But that ain't in the cards as a viable option for a comfortable middle class life anymore. Its' just the result of 30 years of reaganomics. Anyone who thinks corporate america, the bankers, and the bought and paid for politicians want to see an emergence of a strong middle class, backed by a strong skilled blue collar work force (who are likely to unionize) hasn't been living in Ronnie Raygun's america.
 
It may very well be the case that on the whole, too many people are going to college. However, as an individual, you'd be stupid to not go to college. Check out unemployment levels for college graduates as compared to those without. It isn't pretty.

This is the same as the problem of comparing incomes of college grads to others and then saying its all about the degree.

If you are not suited for college you are just going to end up unemployed and lighter in the wallet or deeper in the hole after college.
 
Republicans, conservatives, and their clintonista-democratic allies have outsourced most of our blue collar jobs. Back in the day a high school grad could have a nice middle class life working at the auto-parts plant or the textile mill.

That shit all got outsourced by the phony free trade cabal.


I'm seeing nurses being brought from the phillippines into the U.S. by healthcare conglomerates to compete against american nurses for wages. A race to the bottom. Pitting american workers against people who will come over here and work for half the wages, keep their mouth shut, and not ask for more money and won't unionize. I'm not saying there isn't a need for skilled blue collar work. But that ain't in the cards as a viable option for a comfortable middle class life anymore. Its' just the result of 30 years of reaganomics. Anyone who thinks corporate america, the bankers, and the bought and paid for politicians want to see an emergence of a strong middle class, backed by a strong skilled blue collar work force (who are likely to unionize) hasn't been living in Ronnie Raygun's america.
That's what happens when Wall Street is unregulated. There is no limit to greed. Satiating investors demands for profits is impossible. Long therm thinking and planning goes out the window, everything is focused on the monthly PNL statement.

There is a war on the middle class and unfortunately there's a lot of people out there who are being manipulated by identity politics to support a political system which does not represent their best economic interest.
 
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