The Case Against College Education

[Jarod]

Please explain why western european countries, who are just as high tech as us, don't have a vastly unequal distribution of income and wealth. Why it appears to be only in america where wealth is increasingly and overwhelming getting more concentrated in the top 5% or so.

Cuz them poor people are lazy!

 

[Topspin]

those countries don't have as many rich, turbo-libs would rather eliminate rich than raise the level of the poor.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I'm a teacher and I agree in the main. By the time you have 8 years of performance marks, coupled with consistent standardized test results, you can say with reasonable certainty that near a third of any average class do not have what it SHOULD take to get through university.

They've changed the requirements to such a degree that it's nearly a requirement to attain a post-grad degree just to actually have the basics of your subject of study.

I was told by school councelors all through high school that I was not college material. My standardized test scores were in the top 5% or better, in math, science, writing and reading skills. Tested as reading at a graduate level when I was 16. I took all the AP science classes and still I was told, "College aint for you son you'd better consider a trade!". I also have a friend. He was born with hydrocephalus. His measured IQ is below 90. He was classified as mildly mentally retarded and his local school wanted him sent to special ed because standardised testing backed that up. His parents fought the school and the state in court to keep him in regular school.

I ended up going to college and graduate school and earned a BA and an MS in scientific disciplines which are significantly more demanding then the disciplines those teachers who told me I wasn't college material studied. My friend born with hydrocephalus is now an MD in private practice in the Chicago area.

My point is, I think the decision as to who is college material and who is not is best left up to the individual to decide.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Guidance councelors are a little different nowadays. I've heard many tales about them doing what they did to you back in the day, though...

 

[Mott the Hoople]

lol the copier repair man will never be laid off. Maybe whirlpool should start making them.

I know a kid who didn't want to go to college. Asked me for advise. I said get certified as an electronic technician and learn how to repair ATM machines. He makes pretty good money doing that now.

 

[Minister of Truth]

I know a kid who didn't want to go to college. Asked me for advise. I said get certified as an electronic technician and learn how to repair ATM machines. He makes pretty good money doing that now.

When my dad was going to SU back in the 70s, there was a guy in the chem lab with him who was a genious and too smart for his own good. He got ahold of a text in Russian, and used the info he garnered to synthesize LSD in the lab, and the professors caught him. They even offered to help him transfer to another college and not mention what had taken place, but the fool just dropped out, and when my dad ran into him several years later, the guy had become an ATM repair man!!

 

[Cypress]

I was told by school councelors all through high school that I was not college material. My standardized test scores were in the top 5% or better, in math, science, writing and reading skills. Tested as reading at a graduate level when I was 16. I took all the AP science classes and still I was told, "College aint for you son you'd better consider a trade!". I also have a friend. He was born with hydrocephalus. His measured IQ is below 90. He was classified as mildly mentally retarded and his local school wanted him sent to special ed because standardised testing backed that up. His parents fought the school and the state in court to keep him in regular school.

I ended up going to college and graduate school and earned a BA and an MS in scientific disciplines which are significantly more demanding then the disciplines those teachers who told me I wasn't college material studied. My friend born with hydrocephalus is now an MD in private practice in the Chicago area.

My point is, I think the decision as to who is college material and who is not is best left up to the individual to decide.

Nice! check out the brain on Mottleyman.

Let's be for real. You can't use standardized tests on 15 year old kids and be able to tell jack shit. I personally find this business of trying to shuttle kids onto a blue collar trade trajectory, based on some standardized tests to be a load of horseshit.

It really sounds like the old farts thinking they know it all, and have the capacity to pass judgement on some kid who's not even out of puberty.

You can't tell jack shit about what a kid is capable of at 14 or 15. I was a dope smoking B/C student in high school, and I turned out okay. And you know what those standardized tests measure? They only measure a small fraction of a person's innate intelligence. Reading, writing and arithmetic. That's it. And the human brain and the human personality simply can't be measured for competence and ability, simply by measuring those narrow topics.

There have been decades of studies that show there is zero correlation between high IQ and high scores on standardized tests, and the ability to be successful in a professional career. None, zero, zilch.

Because, as psychologists have long demonstrated, there are other elements to innate intelligence than reading writing and arithmetic - I think they call it emotional intelligence. And it totally makes sense. How many geeks do you know who were brilliant in math or literary topics, but turned out to be absolute failures at work because they lacked adequate emotional, social, and personality skills? I know a ton of them. And my experience is that some of the top performers in corporate america and in the professional technical fields are the B and C-grade college students. Rarely is there a correlation between the brilliant dorks with the top test scores, and which people actually rise to the top after college. Which is probably why dudes like Topspin and Jarod totally dominate in their careers, while some righwing pseudo-intellectual like Newt Gingrich or Charles Krauthammer would starve to death if not for crutch of the rightwing welfare state; i.e. the millionaire-funded rightwing think tanks and subsidized rightwing media outlets.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

It's already happened, the dumbing down I mean. My first degrees were earned in 70's. Went back in early 90's for history and education creds, the writing and thinking were not on par with the past.

The lack of personal accountability her is pretty frightening. It aint the schools that are dumbing down. It's the people! As for dumbing down our post secondary education....how comes the US still issues more student visas then any nation on the planet? I mean...yea...if you want to go to college and spend a bunch of money studying art history and underwater basket weaving or other mickey mouse easy majors so you can brag you got a piece of paper then yea...you can get a dumbed down education. I haven't seen to many dumbed down chemical engineering programs though.

Look, ya'll are putting way to much stock in being "Smart" and being "College Material" to get an advanced education. Work ethic is FAAAAAR more important then those qualities. I may have had to work twice as long and twice as hard to get through Organic Chemistry as some of my class mates....but by God I got through it! I learned it! That's what counts.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Of course, I'm weird, but I bet a standardized test would tell you the same thing about me now as it would have when I was 12 (the age many students are sorted about via testing in Europe).

 

[Mott the Hoople]

When my dad was going to SU back in the 70s, there was a guy in the chem lab with him who was a genious and too smart for his own good. He got ahold of a text in Russian, and used the info he garnered to synthesize LSD in the lab, and the professors caught him. They even offered to help him transfer to another college and not mention what had taken place, but the fool just dropped out, and when my dad ran into him several years later, the guy had become an ATM repair man!!

LOL Majoring in chemistry can tempt you into doing some things your really shouldn't! LOL Not the first time I've heard a story like that and I've had some pretty strange offers in my career I've had to turn down.

 

[Annie]

I was told by school councelors all through high school that I was not college material. My standardized test scores were in the top 5% or better, in math, science, writing and reading skills. Tested as reading at a graduate level when I was 16. I took all the AP science classes and still I was told, "College aint for you son you'd better consider a trade!". I also have a friend. He was born with hydrocephalus. His measured IQ is below 90. He was classified as mildly mentally retarded and his local school wanted him sent to special ed because standardised testing backed that up. His parents fought the school and the state in court to keep him in regular school.

I ended up going to college and graduate school and earned a BA and an MS in scientific disciplines which are significantly more demanding then the disciplines those teachers who told me I wasn't college material studied. My friend born with hydrocephalus is now an MD in private practice in the Chicago area.

My point is, I think the decision as to who is college material and who is not is best left up to the individual to decide.

Considering the standardized test scores, you are outside of what I was talking about, look again.

Yes, there are many kids, especially boys that underperform until high school, they go on to blow away those that used to be 'so far ahead.' No argument from me on that.

 

[Minister of Truth]

We should stop calling it pass/fail...

As students progress and are able to or choose to learn some things and not others... they should different degrees or levels of progress.

The lowest should be the equivelent of a certificate of attendance... Meaning they attended HS but did not achieve any level of accomplishment in the attempt to learn anything.

The highest level should be that they passed and learned enough to be elegable to attend a State College. Between those two can be other levels, like achieved level of mastery at auto mechanic or achieved level of mastery at x, y or z...

Washington State now issues the Certificate of Achievement to all HS graduates, and the Diploma to all who meet standards.

 

[Minister of Truth]

I totally agree with Nigel, lots don't go because they played too much in hs. Lots drop out becuase they played to much in fresh/soph year. Lots are not mature enough at 17/18. One of mine turned down a scholarship to Stanford cause their wrestling team wasn't as good as Iowa's. Of course materialistic dad was pissed but it is what it is.

LOFL I'm guessing he eventually proved himself in your eyes though...

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

All I can say in this is that there are very few jobs that I can get through college that wouldn't have me contemplating suicide every night. I like trades. And the money ain't half bad either.

 

[Topspin]

Welding is very enriching

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

Welding is very enriching

So is general contracting.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Considering the standardized test scores, you are outside of what I was talking about, look again.

Yes, there are many kids, especially boys that underperform until high school, they go on to blow away those that used to be 'so far ahead.' No argument from me on that.

It's not just that. People change, they mature, their circumstances change. I didn't really shine until I got in college. I had mixed grades in high school I was working cause my family was pretty poor and needed the money. I did ok in my core classes but slept through a lot of classes I wasn't motivated in. Poor judgement on my part but I was a kid. When I got to college I had a fire lit under my ass. I was ready work!

But that's just what I'm pointing out. Let's not be so quick to judge.

 

[Timshel]

I don't think there is any need to teach a different curriculum, but there certainly needs to be more division of classes for aptitude. I also think there needs to be more tailoring to how the child learns by jr high.

I was a slacker throughout grade school. But I always did very well on tests. Outside of math, I honestly did not see the point in much of the classwork/homework. All it really did was highlight the key material which is already done in the text. I also lost interest in classes that were too slow.

I applied myself more in college, as well. But, in college most of the work seemed relevant. Also, I truly believe the fact that college cost me something made me work harder.

 

[Annie]

It's not just that. People change, they mature, their circumstances change. I didn't really shine until I got in college. I had mixed grades in high school I was working cause my family was pretty poor and needed the money. I did ok in my core classes but slept through a lot of classes I wasn't motivated in. Poor judgement on my part but I was a kid. When I got to college I had a fire lit under my ass. I was ready work!

But that's just what I'm pointing out. Let's not be so quick to judge.

You actually make my point. On another board the 'liberals' believe it or not, are defending the teachers and saying that it's not their fault, but that the kids come from poor families, so the parents are illiterate. Thus, what is a teacher supposed to do?

That makes me ill.

Truth is, not everyone has an IQ or interests that lead to success in university. Not everyone that comes from a poor background is destined for poverty. Lots of kids from poor schools have the innate intelligence to do well, though their education opportunities if stuck with indifferent teachers may hide that. That was part of my point.

If one teaches in the town I'm most familiar with, to have a kid not do well on standardized tests is freaky. Even in 1960, 50% of kids had a least one parent that had graduated college, most with post-grad degrees. University town, hospital in town, major teaching hospital 6 miles away. Nearly all the families had a doctor, professor, or both in it.

However, not all the kids inherited the brains. Many not enough to avoid drugs and just lazy students. Not bored, just lazy and determined to show their parents they didn't have to apply themselves. Of course they went on to university, though not where their parents would have liked them to have gone. Most of them didn't get a degree, they stayed lazy or really had missed the basics over all those years.

Now about those 'failing schools' in impoverished areas. Do you really want to tell me that those teachers shouldn't be spending 25 minutes more a day teaching? Can't have lunch with students that want to sit and talk with them once a week? Shouldn't keep up with new methods, including technology such as Smartboards, Senteo, to help engage the kids? I can't understand any teacher denying his/her students, especially those lacking so much at home, a chance to succeed in school.

 

[Topspin]

I'm not so inclined to blame teachers. Ifkids aren't motivated and have aholes for parents, not a lot can be done. The lack of money ssue is usually a cover for the anti education culture.