The Case Against College Education

[Mott the Hoople]

Someday you'll realize like I did about 20 years ago that the two words "conservative" and "Democrat" cannot possibly go together to describe the same person. And its gotten much, much worse since Clinton.

Yes we know and we agree in principle. We've also come to the conclusion that "conservative" and "intelligent" can't go together nor can "conservative" and "humane" or "conservative" and "rational".

We have though come to the conclusion that "conservative" and "selfish" go very well together indeed. So do "conservative" and "ignorant" as well as "conservative" and "foolish".

 

[WinterBorn]

Republicans, conservatives, and their clintonista-democratic allies have outsourced most of our blue collar jobs. Back in the day a high school grad could have a nice middle class life working at the auto-parts plant or the textile mill.

That shit all got outsourced by the phony free trade cabal.


I'm seeing nurses being brought from the phillippines into the U.S. by healthcare conglomerates to compete against american nurses for wages. A race to the bottom. Pitting american workers against people who will come over here and work for half the wages, keep their mouth shut, and not ask for more money and won't unionize. I'm not saying there isn't a need for skilled blue collar work. But that ain't in the cards as a viable option for a comfortable middle class life anymore. Its' just the result of 30 years of reaganomics. Anyone who thinks corporate america, the bankers, and the bought and paid for politicians want to see an emergence of a strong middle class, backed by a strong skilled blue collar work force (who are likely to unionize) hasn't been living in Ronnie Raygun's america.

I agree with you to a large degree. Good post.

But the technical and trades training can still land someone a decent job and a comfortable life.

We will always need plumbers, electricians, electrical workers, welders, computer operators/technicians, and other skilled technical trades.

I always told my kids "If you can't finish college, learn to repair copiers.". I have never been in any office setting that didn't call copy repair guys.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I agree with you to a large degree. Good post.

But the technical and trades training can still land someone a decent job and a comfortable life.

We will always need plumbers, electricians, electrical workers, welders, computer operators/technicians, and other skilled technical trades.

I always told my kids "If you can't finish college, learn to repair copiers.". I have never been in any office setting that didn't call copy repair guys.

Well I'd state the purpose of a liberal arts education is to create a well rounded person but the key to economic survival these days is to continouslly assess and update your skill set. I have a philosophy that every 5 years I learn a new skill. 10 years ago I took classes to become skilled in interpreting DOT/HMR/IMDG regulations. 5 years ago I went back to school and took some education classes. In the mid 90's I went back to school and got my masters, etc. I'm now thinking about earning a graduate certificate in project management. I always try to remember this. Specialization and complacency are an economic trap!

I guess the point I'm making here is to not to pidgeon hole people. Why can't one be a CNC Machinist and have a BA/BS degree if that's what you want to do? It doesnt' have to be an either/or choice.

 

[WinterBorn]

Well I'd state the purpose of a liberal arts education is to create a well rounded person but the key to economic survival these days is to continouslly assess and update your skill set. I have a philosophy that every 5 years I learn a new skill. 10 years ago I took classes to become skilled in interpreting DOT/HMR/IMDG regulations. 5 years ago I went back to school and took some education classes. In the mid 90's I went back to school and got my masters, etc. I'm now thinking about earning a graduate certificate in project management. I always try to remember this. Specialization and complacency are an economic trap!

I guess the point I'm making here is to not to pidgeon hole people. Why can't one be a CNC Machinist and have a BA/BS degree if that's what you want to do? It doesnt' have to be an either/or choice.

No, it doesn't have to be an either or choice. I applaud your philosophy of continued learning. It is one we should all aspire to.

But there are plenty of young people who would have trouble wading thru English Lit, Hiistory 101, and Statistics, to get their degree. But can get into a technical education that focuses more on the individual skill rather than a wide range of educational experiences.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

No, it doesn't have to be an either or choice. I applaud your philosophy of continued learning. It is one we should all aspire to.

But there are plenty of young people who would have trouble wading thru English Lit, Hiistory 101, and Statistics, to get their degree. But can get into a technical education that focuses more on the individual skill rather than a wide range of educational experiences.

Oh I agree but even then, the same principle applies to them. They need to be taught to assess their skill sets and periodically update them so as to remain marketable.

 

[WinterBorn]

Oh I agree but even then, the same principle applies to them. They need to be taught to assess their skill sets and periodically update them so as to remain marketable.

Good point, but it also requires that they take on the responsibility of doing that.

I think the biggest barrier to good educations is the general attitude concerning intellectual pursuits.

The kids who play football in high school are heros, regardless of their mediocre grades. The kids who excell in academics are nerds and are ridiculed.

Some inner city schools have to have honors day without announcing it in advance, because the smart kids will stay home to avoid being singled out for their academic achievements.

 

[Annie]

This...precisely this. I am a teacher and have been saying for years that everyone can't go to college. Everyone doesn't need to take high school courses geared for college admissions. Here is where the Europeans beat the tar out of us Americans. By the 7th or 8th grade they have identified kids and separate them as to vocational training classes and what we would call "college bound" training classes. A smart way to do things, IMO. We are the only country....I repeat "the only country" where you will routinely have kids with a room temperature IQ sitting right beside a kid with an IQ double that. Not cool.

I'm a teacher and I agree in the main. By the time you have 8 years of performance marks, coupled with consistent standardized test results, you can say with reasonable certainty that near a third of any average class do not have what it SHOULD take to get through university.

They've changed the requirements to such a degree that it's nearly a requirement to attain a post-grad degree just to actually have the basics of your subject of study.

 

[WinterBorn]

I'm a teacher and I agree in the main. By the time you have 8 years of performance marks, coupled with consistent standardized test results, you can say with reasonable certainty that near a third of any average class do not have what it SHOULD take to get through university.
They've changed the requirements to such a degree that it's nearly a requirement to attain a post-grad degree just to actually have the basics of your subject of study.

This brings up a scary point. If we want everyone to go to college, will we dumb down our post-secondary ed to accomplish that?

We have already done that in much of our public school education.

 

[Annie]

This brings up a scary point. If we want everyone to go to college, will we dumb down our post-secondary ed to accomplish that?

We have already done that in much of our public school education.

It's already happened, the dumbing down I mean. My first degrees were earned in 70's. Went back in early 90's for history and education creds, the writing and thinking were not on par with the past.

 

[DamnYankee]

Yes we know and we agree in principle. We've also come to the conclusion that "conservative" and "intelligent" can't go together nor can "conservative" and "humane" or "conservative" and "rational".

We have though come to the conclusion that "conservative" and "selfish" go very well together indeed. So do "conservative" and "ignorant" as well as "conservative" and "foolish".

Thank you for the extensive elaboration of Democrat talking points, leaving no doubt as to your ignorance of conservatism.

 

[WinterBorn]

Thank you for the extensive elaboration of Democrat talking points, leaving no doubt as to your ignorance of conservatism.

Its pretty obvious that you have shown us all about conservatism. Which is why Mott's post is so accurate.

 

[christiefan915]

Maybe this has been discussed later but do you think it's fair to kids who may be late bloomers that it is chosen for them in the 7th or 8th grade what type of future career path they will be on?

No, it's not fair. The 8th-grade brain is still far from being fully developed and everybody matures at different rates. Also the opposite is true, kids who seem to have it all together from an early age and then crash and burn when they reach adulthood.

 

[DamnYankee]

Its pretty obvious that you have shown us all about conservatism. Which is why Mott's post is so accurate.

I have nothing but contempt for you.

:lol:

 

[Topspin]

lol the copier repair man will never be laid off. Maybe whirlpool should start making them.

 

[Cypress]

That's what happens when Wall Street is unregulated. There is no limit to greed. Satiating investors demands for profits is impossible. Long therm thinking and planning goes out the window, everything is focused on the monthly PNL statement.

There is a war on the middle class and unfortunately there's a lot of people out there who are being manipulated by identity politics to support a political system which does not represent their best economic interest.

Cheers, mate.

 

[Cypress]

I agree with you to a large degree. Good post.

But the technical and trades training can still land someone a decent job and a comfortable life.

We will always need plumbers, electricians, electrical workers, welders, computer operators/technicians, and other skilled technical trades.

I always told my kids "If you can't finish college, learn to repair copiers.". I have never been in any office setting that didn't call copy repair guys.

No doubt someone can be a copy machine technician, or work as a Jiffy Lube technician and be comfortable to the extent that they aren't destitute.

The difference between the blue collar middle class of the post-New Deal era, and the blue collar of today's era is that the working class is today, in large measure, living pay check to pay check. I really don't think those dudes and gals I see working at Fed Ex/Kinkos are owning three bedroom houses and are in a strong position to rake in their fair share of the nations wealth. They're stuck with crap 401(k)s, and their benefits are continually downgraded. aka, per all the nurses from the phillippines I'm seeing brought into the US to compete with american nurses. These are broad generalizations, but the 30-year death-spiral trajectory of american's blue collar working middle class is beyond dispute.

The blue collar middle class of back in the day were easily able to afford a modest three bedroom house, they had a nice pension, good benefits, and they could easily afford to have the spouse stay home to raise the kids. And because they had union representation and because the blue collar middle class was fully empowered, if they worked reasonably hard and kept their nose out of trouble, they were pretty much assured a comfortable retirement on the back of a good union pension. A pre-requisite of what's left of america's blue collar working class, is that both spouses pretty much have to work to achieve the same level of stability and wealth. .


It's not a well-guarded secret why this shit went down. As Mott implied, there's been a war on unions, and on the working class for the last 30 years. Pretty much, ever since corporations and the wealthy interests took over our government. And took over the Democratic Party. Republicans, you could always count on to carry water for big business and wealth. That's what they've always done since the 1880s. But the coup d'etat for big business was taking over what representation working americans had in national policy, by pretty much buying out most of the Democratic party.

 

[leaningright]

No, it's not fair. The 8th-grade brain is still far from being fully developed and everybody matures at different rates. Also the opposite is true, kids who seem to have it all together from an early age and then crash and burn when they reach adulthood.

You guys are completely missing the point here. The way it should work is not to put the lower performing kids on a track that they must stay on but to split them up so that the ones that are ready to can be educated in the very best way possible. Here is a case for you:

I teach a 7th grade Math class. We are going over our assignments from the previous day and I am answering questions when all of a sudden this kid (who doesn't need to be in my class due to extreme emotional problems but is in there anyway because we cannot discriminate) has a meltdown because he feels some kid is picking on him. The whole 55 minute period is now shot because I have to stop and deal with this. It happens more often than you think in a lot of public schools. The disruptions caused by unruly or emotionally disturbed kids that shouldn't be in certain classrooms in the first place but are because we cannot "discriminate" take away from a lot of school time. I would say a conservative estimate would be 30%...but I would like to see an actual study. Honestly folks, I have classes with kids who would knock the top out of an AP physics test sitting right beside a kid who is considered MR on many scales.

And I don't want you to get me wrong here. I would love to teach a classroom full of kids of any wavelength. But make them somewhere close to the same. I'll teach a class full of sweathogs or a class full of emotionally disturbed kids or a class of "normal" kids.....just make them closer to one another in their ability and such...

 

[Timshel]

Republicans, conservatives, and their clintonista-democratic allies have outsourced most of our blue collar jobs. Back in the day a high school grad could have a nice middle class life working at the auto-parts plant or the textile mill.

That shit all got outsourced by the phony free trade cabal.


I'm seeing nurses being brought from the phillippines into the U.S. by healthcare conglomerates to compete against american nurses for wages. A race to the bottom. Pitting american workers against people who will come over here and work for half the wages, keep their mouth shut, and not ask for more money and won't unionize. I'm not saying there isn't a need for skilled blue collar work. But that ain't in the cards as a viable option for a comfortable middle class life anymore. Its' just the result of 30 years of reaganomics. Anyone who thinks corporate america, the bankers, and the bought and paid for politicians want to see an emergence of a strong middle class, backed by a strong skilled blue collar work force (who are likely to unionize) hasn't been living in Ronnie Raygun's america.

This is mostly nonsense. Our economy has become more high tech. That is a significant cause in the stratification of incomes between those with the needed skills and those without. Reagan did not cause that, but if he did he should be heralded. Do you suggest we go back to making buggy whips?

I am opposed to bringing in foreign workers and granting them limited rights in the workplace. But if they choose to come here and work for a lower wage, that's their business, so long as they are not coerced by laws that treat them as indentured servants.

 

[leaningright]

This brings up a scary point. If we want everyone to go to college, will we dumb down our post-secondary ed to accomplish that?

We have already done that in much of our public school education.

It happens at the post-secondary level as well. I teach some night classes for the college in a town near here....math teachers are hard to come by. Anyway, the first year I taught there I thought, "great, just teach the class, give the tests and that's it." After the first test I get this note in my box that student so-and-so is ADHD and needs his tests modified. I thought I had left this behind in the public school.....but no. Not good stuff for college, IMO.

 

[Cypress]

This is mostly nonsense. Our economy has become more high tech. That is a significant cause in the stratification of incomes between those with the needed skills and those without. Reagan did not cause that, but if he did he should be heralded. Do you suggest we go back to making buggy whips?

I am opposed to bringing in foreign workers and granting them limited rights in the workplace. But if they choose to come here and work for a lower wage, that's their business, so long as they are not coerced by laws that treat them as indentured servants.

Please explain why western european countries, who are just as high tech as us, don't have a vastly unequal distribution of income and wealth. Why it appears to be only in america where wealth is increasingly and overwhelming getting more concentrated in the top 5% or so.




EDIT:

US Income Distribution is On a Par with the Third World; Latin American Countries, and some African Countries: