The Christian left and democratic socialism

Social democrats believed that capitalism could be reformed and made to work for the benefit of all members of society and that such improvements could be achieved through democratic elections and reform.

Many prominent leaders of the early social democracy movement in Germany were members of the Catholic Church’s Social Union movement, which emphasized the dignity of workers and their families. It supported the interests of workers being collectively represented by organized trade unions. The German social Catholics would also support a social welfare state that included government-funded health care for all families as well as support for labor unions that included all workers.

In the same way, progressive members of the Anglican Church in Great Britain were among the early reformers of industrial capitalism, and they shared many aims with the German social democrats.

The ethical or moral basis for the rise of social democracy comes from Judeo-Christian theology concerning charity and the welfare of fellow humans. In this view, the suffering of humans, whatever its cause, requires us to try to alleviate that suffering. To some religious thinkers, permitting the continuation of suffering among one’s fellow human souls could be considered immoral and sinful.



Source credit: Edward Stuart, PhD, Professor of Economics, Northeastern Illinois University

The scriptures tell us that you can't legislate any law that will eliminate poverty....why? Poverty comes from many different sources due to a variety of reasons. There are circumstances, free will choices that cause individuals to be poor....some refuse to work, some cannot work because of illness or accident.....some are poor because of natural disasters and have lost everything. You can't MAKE someone work.......you can't MAKE someone redistribute his/her EARNED INCOME because someone refuses to attempt pull themselves out of poverty...that's not liberty, that totalitarianism leading to fascism as certain parts of society are demonized because they are more successful or less successful than others. In a free society can't someone choose to be poor and a beggar? If not why not? But..is it the duty of others to feed, house and take care of these individuals that simply refuse to work? :bigthink:

Yeah......that must be why the Christ stated, "You will ALWAYS have the poor among." -- John 12:8

Creating a welfare state must be why the Christ chastised those who followed him after the miracle of the fishes.....telling them He was not here as God incarnate to feed, house or care for everyone that was impoverished ...He was here to feed the spirit of man....the soul of man, each man was to work out his/her own physical needs. Jesus turned away over 5000 hungry individuals because they sought only to have a full belly. -- John 6:26-27

The Christ was no radical.......not liberal in the least. From the time of His birth he lived the life of a very ORTHODOX HEBREW...never once sinning under the old law of Moses. (Gal. 4:4) He had to walk as a man and without sin to fulfill the requirements established under the old law in order usher in the new law at His death......He had to be the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish.

So the argument that Jesus was some kind of radical liberal promoting socialism is not established in scripture.....its man made dogma based upon traditions established by men.

When a Christian gives........he/she is supposed to give from the heart, not from a mandate of threat such as fine and or imprisonment that's not charity.......that is nothing but organized theft where you take from one man to give to another.....its based upon income redistribution and is at the heart of all communist movements.

What do the scripture say about working? "For even when we (the apostles) were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." -- 2 Thess. 3:10

More clearly? "But if any not provide for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel (non-believer). -- 1 Tim. 5:8
 
Her contributions to this thread were measured and thoughtful.

You willfully decided to jump in out of the blue with a juvenile insult

I've been insulted more times than I can count by bigots like you for my spiritual beliefs. Wimp assed Bill can't answer a simple question on why Christians (Evangelicals in particular, since he singled us out) are so evil. Don't give me the juvenile shit.
 
The scriptures tell us that you can't legislate any law that will eliminate poverty....why? Poverty comes from many different sources due to a variety of reasons. There are circumstances, free will choices that cause individuals to be poor....some refuse to work, some cannot work because of illness or accident.....some are poor because of natural disasters and have lost everything. You can't MAKE someone work.......you can't MAKE someone redistribute his/her EARNED INCOME because someone refuses to attempt pull themselves out of poverty...that's not liberty, that totalitarianism leading to fascism as certain parts of society are demonized because they are more successful or less successful than others. In a free society can't someone choose to be poor and a beggar? If not why not? But..is it the duty of others to feed, house and take care of these individuals that simply refuse to work? :bigthink:

Why are the many poor? Because the few are rich. Property is theft. In our world there is plenty for everyone, if we are brave enough to get rid of the wicked.

Yeah......that must be why the Christ stated, "You will ALWAYS have the poor among." -- John 12:8

Creating a welfare state must be why the Christ chastised those who followed him after the miracle of the fishes.....telling them He was not here as God incarnate to feed, house or care for everyone that was impoverished ...He was here to feed the spirit of man....the soul of man, each man was to work out his/her own physical needs. Jesus turned away over 5000 hungry individuals because they sought only to have a full belly. -- John 6:26-27

The Christ was no radical.......not liberal in the least. From the time of His birth he lived the life of a very ORTHODOX HEBREW...never once sinning under the old law of Moses. (Gal. 4:4) He had to walk as a man and without sin to fulfill the requirements established under the old law in order usher in the new law at His death......He had to be the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish.

So the argument that Jesus was some kind of radical liberal promoting socialism is not established in scripture.....its man made dogma based upon traditions established by men.

When a Christian gives........he/she is supposed to give from the heart, not from a mandate of threat such as fine and or imprisonment that's not charity.......that is nothing but organized theft where you take from one man to give to another.....its based upon income redistribution and is at the heart of all communist movements.

What do the scripture say about working? "For even when we (the apostles) were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." -- 2 Thess. 3:10

More clearly? "But if any not provide for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel (non-believer). -- 1 Tim. 5:8

As you know, Jesus lived in a society where most people were very poor in today's terms, and it is not only silly but obscene to pretend we can't afford whatever anyone needs. Jesus, as you see from his views of the rich, was the nearest thing to a socialist his world afforded: read Acts and study the early Church.

We must always have the poor amongst us, must we? We didn't here between 1945 and 1951 (when Labour were finally cheated out of power having scored the biggest vote for any party achieved in British history) supported by most Christians (my Father was an Anglican priest), though a couple of Bishops supported the Communist Party). I saw my first beggar years later in Cambridge, and he was a fake getting his beer-money from a lot of upper-class clowns who lived in the past, and it was only under Thatcher that real poverty returned. All this bilge of yours is wicked, anachronistic nonsense: we don't live in the First Century.
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I've been insulted more times than I can count by bigots like you for my spiritual beliefs. Wimp assed Bill can't answer a simple question on why Christians (Evangelicals in particular, since he singled us out) are so evil. Don't give me the juvenile shit.

If you are talking about Christianity, I have been more articulate, informed, and insightful in defending authentic Christianity on this forum than you ever have. And I have the posts to prove it.
 
Why are the many poor? Because the few are rich. Property is theft. In our world there is plenty for everyone, if we are brave enough to get rid of the wicked.



As you know, Jesus lived in a society where most people were very poor in today's terms, and it is not only silly but obscene to pretend we can't afford whatever anyone needs. Jesus, as you see from his views of the rich, was the nearest thing to a socialist his world afforded: read Acts and study the early Church.

We must always have the poor amongst us, must we? We didn't here between 1945 and 1951 (when Labour were finally cheated out of power having scored the biggest vote for any party achieved in British history) supported by most Christians (my Father was an Anglican priest), though a couple of Bishops supported the Communist Party). I saw my first beggar years later in Cambridge, and he was a fake getting his beer-money from a lot of upper-class clowns who lived in the past, and it was only under Thatcher that real poverty returned. All this bilge of yours is wicked, anachronistic nonsense: we don't live in the First Century.
. .



Reality: Some 22 Trillion dollars has been spent by socialists in the United States sense the 1960s and the inception of the Great Society Welfare Programs (not including SS and Medicare)......yet after more than 50 years poverty still exists in the United States with the needle that measures such barely moving. THE WAR ON POVERTY appears to be a losing battle. This war on poverty has cost the US tax payers nearly 3.5 times the total cost of ALL THE WARS ever fought in the entire history of the US Military. www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality

https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/the-war-poverty-after-50-years

No poor existed between 1945 and 1951? I Call BS on this AD HOMINEM "subjective" attempt at hyperbolic bloviation




How can poverty RETURN when it never left? Poverty has been among mankind since the beginning....even in Great Britain and you are a liar if you suggest that poverty was eliminated. You may have (through fascist and totalitarian doctrines) attempted to redistribute wealth......making everyone equally impoverished .....you never eliminated poverty.

Do I really care about your subjective opinions when everyone has access to the truth concerning the proper doctrine of Christianity.....the Holy Scriptures? No, I simply point out the truth when subjective opinion is attempting to establish DOGMA and TRADITION in place of righteous doctrine. You are propagating FALSE DOCTRINE

The entirety of mankind will never find the proper path to righteousness, the way is too narrow for the majority, "Enter ye at the straight gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction; and many there be which go in there at. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadth unto life, and few there be that find it. BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS, WHICH COME TO YOU IN SHEEPS CLOTHING (much like the Catholic rulers of the middle ages that taught manmade dogma and tradition rather than doctrine found in scripture), but inwardly they are ravening wolves." -- Matt. 7:13-15:bigthink:

Does it surprise me there are many RICH that refuse to share, to give to the needy? Of course not......its the human condition, as long as freewill exists, poverty will exist. The only way to even pretend to eliminate poverty is to propagate Totalitarianism and Fascism where the state takes away that free will under threat of fine, imprisonment or even DEATH. Thus, in a FREE REPUBLIC.......where you find the concept of LIBERTY and FREEDOM.........you will always find that poverty will always exist due to the liberty of freedom and chance circumstances.

Indeed........and God tells us that the human condition will remain the same. Don't believe GOD INCARNATE that tells us that "The poor will be among you always", its your soul, your right as conveyor of the gift of FREE WILL. Why will there always be the poor among us? Because the majority of people have no compassion and are self centered. That FACT does not eliminate the TRUTH found in scripture. Everyone sins...only God knows the heart of man and will reward or punish determined upon that knowledge. Still THE POOR will remain among us until the end of days.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; WHO CAN KNOW IT? I THE LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings." -- Jer. 17:9-10 Some faiths call it KARMA.

You can rant about your MAXIST AGENDA in attempting to divide and separate the population by pitting the rich against the poor.......the black against the white......one gender against another and tell us that you are doing this for the good of the COLLECTIVE in the name of diversity. Is diversity and the preaching thereof a good thing? Only if you want to divide a peoples based upon skin color and social status....and create a tribal mentality instead of properly assimilating as ONE NATION UNDER GOD as being a US CITIZEN regardless of skin color, race, gender, religion etc.,

That reality is what frightens the hell out of the MARXIST........ONE NATION SPEAKING WITH ONE VOICE IN DEDICATION TO ONE CAUSE....peace. With national pride you get no book burnings...the modern equivalent of which is the attempt to burn down, tear down all our national monuments......silence any voice that does not agree with your fascist opinion, that propagates riots, looting, burning...even MURDER in the name of your diversity because the END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS.

You correctly stated the fact.......there are many that refuse to have compaison......to give where human suffering exists...but still you can't legislate poverty into not existing just as the Christ explained. Why? Its simple, There will be FEW that will find THE WAY.

What is the WAY? Jesus is the WAY. -- John 14:6 God said the way would be easy for those who believed in righteousness -- Isaiah 42:16 Every obstacle would be removed out of the WAY -- Isaiah 57:14. Only the wicked (the majority of all mankind who sins void of repentance) stumbles on the path of righteousness -- Hosea 14:9 JESUS IS THAT ROCK THAT CAUSES THE WICKED TO STUMBLE -- 1 Peter 2:7-8

To walk on the path that is the correct WAY requires, BELIEF, ACCEPTENCE, AND OBEDIENCE TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHRIST, which the many are unwilling to accept and follow.

The many insist upon walking on their own path (as an agent of free will....man often chooses wrong) -- Rom. 9:32-33 Jesus teaches they must choose the correct WAY to find salvation...He makes them choose. -- John 15:18-25

People love wickedness to much to choose correctly and walk a clean path in this reality we call LIFE. -- 2 Thess. 2:9-12

Is the Christian instructed to give, to have compassion? Of course...but the Christian is instructed to give to those he observes that are in need. The Christians first duty is LOCALLY....to give to the local brotherhood and community where it is needed. A Christian is instructed to give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar....but that giving is not charity, not in the least...there is no compassion when paying taxes that are wasted. Give and work in your own communities where you can observe first hand where need exists....as instructed in scripture. How can you witness need first hand when a central government thousands of miles away MANDATES you to share in your income? You can't.....so I say, If 10% was good enough for God.........then 10% is good enough for Caesar. :good4u:
 
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It's interesting, my Pastor fits the description here. He's a white hipster millennial social democrat. He's big on calling our church a woke church and he is all in on the anti-racism movement. His social media feed talks more about politics than God. Our church is maybe five years old now and even though it's in SF it's largely younger and white and has a lot of tech workers who have a good amount of money.

So it's interesting because to many of the old timers the young tech workers have ruined the soul of San Francisco, caused real estate prices to rise astronomically and forced many of the artists, LGBT community, non profits and others out of the City. So I'm guessing 90% of my church votes Democratic but these are still folks but they're out there 'changing their world' with their tech companies, not doing the grunt work you speak of.

What does calling the church he leads woke mean??

What role are you implying their occupations & wealth play in it??
 
I see more libel, cursing, vindictiveness, toxic slander from self-professed "Christians" on this forum, than I have ever witnessed in real life

But even worse than that: they have not the slighest indication of remorse or regret for indulging in libel and cursing.

I like to think most ppl are better than the troll they play here..

Obviously I could be mistaken about a few lol

Some claim to be Christian, although there is zero evidence of that.......

I guess it is hard to hold them to it if they never bothered to even learn anything about the one they claim to follow..
 
Admittedly I don't follow any other Pastors on social media so I don't know how common it is for them to discuss politics. My Pastor puts out a lot of anti-Trump posts. I'm not a Trump guy so it's not like that offends me per se but partisan politics brings so much polarization I'm not a big fan of my Pastor engaging in it. (He also calls out conservative evangelical churches as well.)

I don't know about pulling tax exempt status of a church because the Pastor posts about politics but I'm not a huge fan of the blatant partisan stuff.

IMHO I don't agree w/ that......

His role, or so I would have thought, is to emulate Christ & seek the same for his "flock".........

Politics has nothing to do w/ it.......

The result of that is what we see, polarization & the politicization of the church where politics & church are an addendum of the other~an unholy symbiotic alliance..
 
We don't tax churches or pastors because we want to maintain the separation of church and state, a valid reason even if it means less revenue. However, when they start preaching politics from their pulpits -- and I don't care which political side they are talking about -- it's time to remove that special status. You can have one, or you can have the other... but you don't get both. It's one thing, IMO, to remind your parishioners that Jesus wanted us to care for and help the poor, or Jesus wanted us to love one another. It's a whole different thing to tell them that Jesus would have wanted us to vote for ___ or support ___ political group.

:hand:
 
I should probably know more than I do but I believe it's an independent non denominational church (at one time I may have known where the founding couple got their capital but I can't remember). It started off in a movie theater and now moved to a bigger location but services are not held in a church.

It may be worth a look into.:thup:

Many churches are now moving further away from being identified w/ some denomination.......

Dropping it from their names etc eventhough the legal connections may still exist..
 
Her contributions to this thread were measured and thoughtful.

You willfully decided to jump in out of the blue with a juvenile insult

Yep........... A typical him...

You can always tell he puts lots of thought in a post...........:laugh:

Prob the lamest troll here............. & that is sayin a lot
 
What does calling the church he leads woke mean??

What role are you implying their occupations & wealth play in it??

There was a book written in 2018 called "Woke Church: An Urgent Call for Christians in America to Confront Racism and Injustice"

I don't know if my Pastor has read that book or if it is the impetus for him calling our church a woke church but I think the title sums up well how our Pastor defines it.


One can be in the tech world and still do 'grunt work' I suppose but if you're in the tech world you aren't dedicating your life to grunt work. (if i'm understanding you correctly)
 
I definitely agree with your first sentence. As far as my Pastor I don't know if he's specifically said the words "Vote for Joe Biden" but if you read what he's posting it's pretty clear he's saying that without actually saying it.

From my perspective I knew he was politically progressive when we joined the church. That wasn't an issue for me. What I'm not a fan of are the purely partisan political comments like the Trump one above. I'm sure many of us who have Facebook accounts would agree there's a lot of political toxicity on that site. So I'm not a fan of seeing it from my Pastor and seeing my Pastor's page full of partisan bickering.

I don't think our church should lose his tax exempt status because of what he posts though.

Is it fair to question his motives??

I dunno about your church, most churches "hire" a pastor, he is paid staff & works @ the discretion of church members..

If for whatever reason they wish to dismiss him, he can be democratically dismissed..........

If I was to question, I think first you would need to ask, is what he is doing/posting seeking ppl to Christ/teaching them to follow in his foot steps etc.......

Posting about politics seems like a big no IMHO..... That is leading ppl to something, not Christ........

Not sure you would need to ask much else...... :dunno:
 
IMHO I don't agree w/ that......

His role, or so I would have thought, is to emulate Christ & seek the same for his "flock".........

Politics has nothing to do w/ it.......

The result of that is what we see, polarization & the politicization of the church where politics & church are an addendum of the other~an unholy symbiotic alliance..

I believe he thinks too many (liberals) people turn away from God and the church because they associate it with conservative right-wing evangelicalism. Thus he offers an alternative of a progressive, activist 'woke' church. And if people see us out in the community fighting against injustice they might be more inclined to check us out.

For me it's really starting to turn me off. I've been going to this church for a handful of years starting not long after its founding. I consider the Pastor and his wife friend's and we've had them over for dinner. He baptized my daughter. I always knew he was politically liberal but that doesn't bother me. However this recent shift to getting far more into politics has started turning me away from him. Like you said, there is already enough polarization in the world. I don't like seeing come from my Pastor.
 
I've been insulted more times than I can count by bigots like you for my spiritual beliefs. Wimp assed Bill can't answer a simple question on why Christians (Evangelicals in particular, since he singled us out) are so evil. Don't give me the juvenile shit.

Why should I answer your dumb questions when you won't answer mind??

You really should stop w/ the US & WE.

You play your persona as a Christian, eventhough nothing about your persona is Christian.............

Your defense of the faith you know nothing of?? :laugh: (just lookin for another fight, you poor victim you)

You have never read the bible & don't know a damn thing about the Christ or Christianity-you are a poser-pretending, nothing more.......
 
Is it fair to question his motives??

I dunno about your church, most churches "hire" a pastor, he is paid staff & works @ the discretion of church members..

If for whatever reason they wish to dismiss him, he can be democratically dismissed..........

If I was to question, I think first you would need to ask, is what he is doing/posting seeking ppl to Christ/teaching them to follow in his foot steps etc.......

Posting about politics seems like a big no IMHO..... That is leading ppl to something, not Christ........

Not sure you would need to ask much else...... :dunno:

I don't know where his funding came from but my Pastor basically started this church. So he's grown it from like 10 people at his first services to over several hundred today. So at this point if people don't like it you just find another church as opposed to trying to replace him (it would be one thing if this was an established church and had prior Pastors etc.)
 
Why are the many poor? Because the few are rich. Property is theft. In our world there is plenty for everyone, if we are brave enough to get rid of the wicked.



As you know, Jesus lived in a society where most people were very poor in today's terms, and it is not only silly but obscene to pretend we can't afford whatever anyone needs. Jesus, as you see from his views of the rich, was the nearest thing to a socialist his world afforded: read Acts and study the early Church.

We must always have the poor amongst us, must we? We didn't here between 1945 and 1951 (when Labour were finally cheated out of power having scored the biggest vote for any party achieved in British history) supported by most Christians (my Father was an Anglican priest), though a couple of Bishops supported the Communist Party). I saw my first beggar years later in Cambridge, and he was a fake getting his beer-money from a lot of upper-class clowns who lived in the past, and it was only under Thatcher that real poverty returned. All this bilge of yours is wicked, anachronistic nonsense: we don't live in the First Century.
. .

From ralf's bull shit all to say nothing~

Just his justification to do nothing.......

Relieving suffering etc.... As there will always be poor, he can't fix that, he'll watch tv instead, oh well.............
 
If you are talking about Christianity, I have been more articulate, informed, and insightful in defending authentic Christianity on this forum than you ever have. And I have the posts to prove it.

Very, very tru dat!!!
 
There was a book written in 2018 called "Woke Church: An Urgent Call for Christians in America to Confront Racism and Injustice"

I don't know if my Pastor has read that book or if it is the impetus for him calling our church a woke church but I think the title sums up well how our Pastor defines it.


One can be in the tech world and still do 'grunt work' I suppose but if you're in the tech world you aren't dedicating your life to grunt work. (if i'm understanding you correctly)

Your profession has nothing to do w/ helping others, loving your neighbor etc... :dunno:

I have not heard of that, seems like an interesting read though.....
 
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