The Constitution is clear about the mail in voting

[archives]

Requiring ID to register to vote and to vote, along with voting in person, are not radical changes. All mail-in voting is a radical change. Voting 'seasons' weeks long is a radical change. And, yes I think there is a degree of fraud in the system.

With all mail-in balloting you don't know who filled out any particular ballot. The only verification for that is a signature on it that has to have a low probability of a match. With weeks to vote it is easily possible that any number of scenarios occur where a ballot is filled out fraudulently.

Toss in ballot harvesting where political party operatives are legally allowed to collect ballots from voters for turn in. There's no supervision or control on their actions from the time they receive said ballot and when they turn it in, if they bother to.

Same day, no ID required voter registration is another thing rife for fraud. No ID in person voting is yet another.

Severe restrictions on purging voter rolls is still another way to get massive fraud. Since political parties have access to voter names and party they can use those bloated rolls in all sorts of fraudulent schemes given they have weeks to carry them out.

California allows 16- and 17-year-olds to "pre-register" to vote now. They legally can't vote until they're 18 however.... How stupid is that? Why can't they register to vote at 18 and not clog the voter rolls with persons that are ineligible to vote?

Your claim that it's rare is based on known cases. This is based on a combination of Ludic and McNamara fallacies. In the past, claims were that Medicare and other government welfare programs were mostly fraud free. We've seen in the last year or two how that claim is clearly fallacious. The fraud was there but undiscovered. In a voting system where much of it is done unsupervised and with plenty of time and means to commit massive fraud, it is possible, even likely, that massive fraud is occurring but simply goes undetected because the system in place allows, even helps, hiding it.

They are radical changes

People have always provided ID to register, but the Safe Act would require strict guidelines as to what is acceptable ID, most of which very few Americans have today (less than 50% have passports and only six States have acceptable Real ID’s). As for voter ID fraud, it is documented to be nearly nonexistent.

And the bottom line, no evidence has been found that there exists any problems or threatening issues with the existing election system, none, zero, zilch. All the antidotal narratives and what if scenarios are meaningless, and you want to upend and threaten voters’ vote all because Trump says without proof that elections are full of fraud

The strength of any democracy is expanding the citizens ability to influence their government, select their leaders, not restrict it, and to do so deliberately for personal political gain is unethical. Voters are suppose to pick their leaders, not have leaders pick their voters

 

[T. A. Gardner]

They are radical changes

People have always provided ID to register, but the Safe Act would require strict guidelines as to what is acceptable ID, most of which very few Americans have today (less than 50% have passports and only six States have acceptable Real ID’s). As for voter ID fraud, it is documented to be nearly nonexistent.

Changing the rules in what amounts to a minor way is not radical. The rest of your argument is simply an irrelevant Appeal to privation, coupled with a lie. You don't need a passport to register to vote with the SAVE Act. You would need your photo ID, like a driver's license, and a birth certificate to do so. You have months to get those documents and then register. The cost of a birth certificate is generally minimal and how to get one is information readily available online.

How to get a certified copy of a U.S. birth certificate | USAGov

Learn how to get a certified copy of your U.S. birth certificate. The process depends on whether you were born inside or outside the United States.

www.usa.gov

As for voter fraud, you keep repeating that Ludic / McNamara fallacy as if saying it enough times makes it logical.

And the bottom line, no evidence has been found that there exists any problems or threatening issues with the existing election system, none, zero, zilch. All the antidotal narratives and what if scenarios are meaningless, and you want to upend and threaten voters’ vote all because Trump says without proof that elections are full of fraud

Irrelevant appeal to tradition.

The strength of any democracy is expanding the citizens ability to influence their government, select their leaders, not restrict it, and to do so deliberately for personal political gain is unethical. Voters are suppose to pick their leaders, not have leaders pick their voters

No, the strength of a democracy is having a government that is answerable to the people it serves. The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. That's as true in a democracy as it is in a dictatorship.

Today, voters in the US are given a binary choice of who they elect to a given office. That's hardly some really open choice.

 

[Nordberg]

We could pre-register when I was in high school. People were not allowed to vote until they reached the proper age,
Mail-in requires registration. They send you a letter asking if you want a ballot sent to your house. as in previous elections,. They go to people who have voted mail in before. A mail in is sent to the precinct on the ballot. It is counted just like in person.
None of what you write is true.

 

[archives]

Changing the rules in what amounts to a minor way is not radical. The rest of your argument is simply an irrelevant Appeal to privation, coupled with a lie. You don't need a passport to register to vote with the SAVE Act. You would need your photo ID, like a driver's license, and a birth certificate to do so. You have months to get those documents and then register. The cost of a birth certificate is generally minimal and how to get one is information readily available online.

How to get a certified copy of a U.S. birth certificate | USAGov

Learn how to get a certified copy of your U.S. birth certificate. The process depends on whether you were born inside or outside the United States.

www.usa.gov

As for voter fraud, you keep repeating that Ludic / McNamara fallacy as if saying it enough times makes it logical.


Irrelevant appeal to tradition.


No, the strength of a democracy is having a government that is answerable to the people it serves. The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen. That's as true in a democracy as it is in a dictatorship.

Today, voters in the US are given a binary choice of who they elect to a given office. That's hardly some really open choice.

Not minor, as shown, most Americans do not have the required IDs, to obtain such takes weeks with costs, and if say you got married or changed addresses by Election Day you could be out of luck. All unnecessary and only made such by one documented liar’s unproven claims

And you are wrong just needing an ID, only certain ID’s are accepted to register, and as noted above, if you got married or changed addresses inbetween registering and voting, you may not vote

The McNamara fallacy does not apply, the existing system worked, it worked perfectly, no one found that it didn’t

 

[T. A. Gardner]

We could pre-register when I was in high school. People were not allowed to vote until they reached the proper age,

That doesn't make it right or necessary. Only those eligible to vote should be able to register to vote.

Mail-in requires registration. They send you a letter asking if you want a ballot sent to your house. as in previous elections,. They go to people who have voted mail in before. A mail in is sent to the precinct on the ballot. It is counted just like in person.

So? How do you know the person it was mailed to filled it out? How do you know if the person it was mailed to re-mailed it elsewhere to be filled out?

None of what you write is true.

All of what I wrote is true. What you wrote in rebuttal were the same tired logical fallacies and non sequiturs in an attempt to defend the indefensible.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Not minor, as shown, most Americans do not have the required IDs, to obtain such takes weeks with costs, and if say you got married or changed addresses by Election Day you could be out of luck. All unnecessary and only made such by one documented liar’s unproven claims

Argument by repetition doesn't strengthen your position. I showed you how easy it is to obtain the proper needed ID's. The cost is negligible. Your argument, when applied to other ID for other needs, sounds ridiculous. Is it too much hassle, cost, and time involved to get a driver's license? How about to obtain that marriage license to begin with to get married?

But, when it comes to voting, which I'm sure you'd agree is one of the most important civic duties you have, it suddenly is too much hassle to produce ID to register and then again when you vote. Some argument you have...

And you are wrong just needing an ID, only certain ID’s are accepted to register, and as noted above, if you got married or changed addresses inbetween registering and voting, you may not vote

You need an ID to buy liquor. You need an ID to open and access your bank account. You need ID to enter many government buildings today. Then you make the same, tired, argument about marriage or change of address. If you do either you may have to get your driver's license updated. You have to change the names or addresses on things like your bank account if that happens.
But, by god, it's too much to ask you do the same when you vote, one of your most important civic duties!

The McNamara fallacy does not apply, the existing system worked, it worked perfectly, no one found that it didn’t

A McNamara fallacy does apply. You are making your claim solely on known, quantifiable data while ignoring potential data that isn't proven or available.

 

[archives]

Argument by repetition doesn't strengthen your position. I showed you how easy it is to obtain the proper needed ID's. The cost is negligible. Your argument, when applied to other ID for other needs, sounds ridiculous. Is it too much hassle, cost, and time involved to get a driver's license? How about to obtain that marriage license to begin with to get married?

But, when it comes to voting, which I'm sure you'd agree is one of the most important civic duties you have, it suddenly is too much hassle to produce ID to register and then again when you vote. Some argument you have...


You need an ID to buy liquor. You need an ID to open and access your bank account. You need ID to enter many government buildings today. Then you make the same, tired, argument about marriage or change of address. If you do either you may have to get your driver's license updated. You have to change the names or addresses on things like your bank account if that happens.
But, by god, it's too much to ask you do the same when you vote, one of your most important civic duties!

A McNamara fallacy does apply. You are making your claim solely on known, quantifiable data while ignoring potential data that isn't proven or available.

Whether repeated or not, tney are the facts, it takes two or three weeks to acquire a birth certificate, in some states, over a month, North Carolina up to three months (https://www.usbirthcertificates.com/processing-times). A passport even longer with additional costs, facts

And you keep saying ID like any ID is applicable, tney are not, the safe Act prescribes designated acceptable ID, of which most people do not have. And as noted, if you moved or changed your name by it say marriage and didn’t repeat the process, you could be out of luck, more facts

Voting is important, and intentionally disenfranchising voters contradicts the purpose

No one needs an ID proving citizenship to buy liquor, enter buildings, get a driver’s license, or open a bank account, but according to the Safe Act they do one register to vote, even if they have been voting for decades

Wait a minute, making decisions based upon what you know, what the evidence clearly shows valid, facts proven by reality, is now inferior to possibilities inherent in unproven data? You are aware that logic completely negates reason

I think you really haven’t a clue what is in the Safe Act and it’s ramifications on a system that has been found to work

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Whether repeated or not, tney are the facts, it takes two or three weeks to acquire a birth certificate, in some states, over a month, North Carolina up to three months (https://www.usbirthcertificates.com/processing-times). A passport even longer with additional costs, facts

The next election is in November. Since that document is only required to register, you have more than half-a-year to get it done. You, again, are making an argument for sloth here.

And you keep saying ID like any ID is applicable, tney are not, the safe Act prescribes designated acceptable ID, of which most people do not have. And as noted, if you moved or changed your name by it say marriage and didn’t repeat the process, you could be out of luck, more facts

For voting, versus registration--something you seemingly don't differentiate between--common ID like a driver's license is sufficient for voting. For registration, a one-time thing, only a bit more is required. If you want a Real ID, you'll need a birth certificate, or you can't use air travel unless you pay a $55 fee at the TSA checkpoint for not having one.

Again, your argument singles out voting as some special ID requirement when the SAVE act really is requiring you to do what you'd do to get a Real ID, get a Passport, or enlist in the military. Moving, within the same state is simply a change of address for voter registration. You don't have to reregister completely. Since you need a birth certificate to get a marriage license, what's the problem there? You already have the needed documents for voter registration.

Voting is important, and intentionally disenfranchising voters contradicts the purpose

This doesn't disenfranchise anyone. What it does is ensure you are eligible.

No one needs an ID proving citizenship to buy liquor, enter buildings, get a driver’s license, or open a bank account, but according to the Safe Act they do one register to vote, even if they have been voting for decades

No one need an ID proving citizenship to vote, only to register to vote. The same with the rest. You need a Real ID--requiring a birth certificate to fly domestically now or you pay a $55 fee each time you pass through a TSA checkpoint. Stop conflating the act of voting with the act of voter registration too.

Wait a minute, making decisions based upon what you know, what the evidence clearly shows valid, facts proven by reality, is now inferior to possibilities inherent in unproven data? You are aware that logic completely negates reason

No, ignoring possible situations that aren't verified but could exist is the problem. You are arguing essentially the same one made by the Left and Democrats up to a few months ago that welfare and medicaid / care fraud was relatively rare. Now, it's obvious it isn't and that both are widespread and prevalent.

I think you really haven’t a clue what is in the Safe Act and it’s ramifications on a system that has been found to work

The Safe Act has to do with mortgages and mortgage fraud. The SAVE Act is about voter ID and registration. I also disagree that the current system works well or without fraud, both real and potential.

 

[Teflon Don]

The Constitution is very clear: only Congress and the states can make laws regarding our elections. The ability to vote by mail is crucial to our democracy. It ensures that voters with disabilities, those without transportation access, working families, those who are deployed or otherwise abroad, and many others who rely on its flexibility can exercise their right to vote.

ACLU Condemns President Trump’s Executive Order Attempting to Restrict Mail-In Voting | American Civil Liberties Union

WASHINGTON, D.C. — The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) condemns President Trump’s new unlawful executive order attempting to restrict mail-in...

www.aclu.org

You mean so democrats can cheat.

 

[AProudLefty]

You mean so democrats can cheat.

Lots of elderly vote Republican.

 

[archives]

The next election is in November. Since that document is only required to register, you have more than half-a-year to get it done. You, again, are making an argument for sloth here.


For voting, versus registration--something you seemingly don't differentiate between--common ID like a driver's license is sufficient for voting. For registration, a one-time thing, only a bit more is required. If you want a Real ID, you'll need a birth certificate, or you can't use air travel unless you pay a $55 fee at the TSA checkpoint for not having one.

Again, your argument singles out voting as some special ID requirement when the SAVE act really is requiring you to do what you'd do to get a Real ID, get a Passport, or enlist in the military. Moving, within the same state is simply a change of address for voter registration. You don't have to reregister completely. Since you need a birth certificate to get a marriage license, what's the problem there? You already have the needed documents for voter registration.


This doesn't disenfranchise anyone. What it does is ensure you are eligible.


No one need an ID proving citizenship to vote, only to register to vote. The same with the rest. You need a Real ID--requiring a birth certificate to fly domestically now or you pay a $55 fee each time you pass through a TSA checkpoint. Stop conflating the act of voting with the act of voter registration too.


No, ignoring possible situations that aren't verified but could exist is the problem. You are arguing essentially the same one made by the Left and Democrats up to a few months ago that welfare and medicaid / care fraud was relatively rare. Now, it's obvious it isn't and that both are widespread and prevalent.

The Safe Act has to do with mortgages and mortgage fraud. The SAVE Act is about voter ID and registration. I also disagree that the current system works well or without fraud, both real and potential.

Hasn’t passed yet, and I have an acceptable Real ID plus passport, two passports for that matter

Only six States have accepted Real ID’s with citizenship information

Registration is a one time thing as long as you don’t get married or change addresses

Why have people jump thru new hoops to vote to address a problem that doesn’t even exist

So were suppose to prepare for situations that don’t exist?

And you, nor Trump, have any evidence that the current system doesn’t work, because you and him don’t think it does doesn’t change the reality

 

[Teflon Don]

Lots of elderly vote Republican.

and they have plenty of time to get to the polls

mail in ballots = cheating

tell ya what puddin pop I will make a deal with ya. You lefties supposedly love compromise

You can have all the mail in ballots you want, but in exchange all counts have to be done by midnight in each time zone of the election. No still counting shit two and three weeks later.

Deal?

I am sure you will have some lame assed excuse as to why you won't agree to it, but it will be fun to hear it nonetheless

 

[Teflon Don]

Hasn’t passed yet, and I have an acceptable Real ID plus passport, two passports for that matter

Only six States have accepted Real ID’s with citizenship information

Registration is a one time thing as long as you don’t get married or change addresses

Why have people jump thru new hoops to vote to address a problem that doesn’t even exist

So were suppose to prepare for situations that don’t exist?

And you, nor Trump, have any evidence that the current system doesn’t work, because you and him don’t think it does doesn’t change the reality

because we know you cheat

 

[archives]

because we know you cheat

Yet you have zero, zilch proof of your claim, it is about as real as the Easter Bunny

 

[Ichabod Stain]

The ability to vote by mail should be a last resort, not a first. We should NOT have election seasons but an election day. Voting by mail should be something done only because you have little alternative choice, not because you can't be inconvenienced to stand in line at a polling station, show some ID that you're who you say you are, and vote in person.

All mail-in elections are a sham and an insult to democratic institutions.

but since it's always abused it should be phased out completely.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

They are radical changes

People have always provided ID to register, but the Safe Act would require strict guidelines as to what is acceptable ID, most of which very few Americans have today (less than 50% have passports and only six States have acceptable Real ID’s). As for voter ID fraud, it is documented to be nearly nonexistent.

Search Assist



As of now, all U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and five territories are compliant with the REAL ID Act and issuing REAL ID driver’s licenses and IDs. This means that every state has met the federal standards for identification documents.
nilc.org keesingtechnologies.com

And the bottom line, no evidence has been found that there exists any problems or threatening issues with the existing election system, none, zero, zilch. All the antidotal narratives and what if scenarios are meaningless, and you want to upend and threaten voters’ vote all because Trump says without proof that elections are full of fraud

The strength of any democracy is expanding the citizens ability to influence their government, select their leaders, not restrict it, and to do so deliberately for personal political gain is unethical. Voters are suppose to pick their leaders, not have leaders pick their voters

you keep your eyes closed, ignorant jackass.

you're never gonna see shit.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

if we're doing the new world order we might as well have good elections, and surveillance state enforcment of marital monogamy.

you dems ready?

 

[Nordberg]

In any voting precinct, every vote must be matched to the person assigned to that precinct. There is no mechanism to approve extra votes. If you dump a bunch of ballots, the police will be summoned. They cannot be counted.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

but since it's always abused it should be phased out completely.

I can see mail-in voting being a rare exception. Things like military members getting to use mail-in ballots, for example.

 

[archives]

Search Assist



As of now, all U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and five territories are compliant with the REAL ID Act and issuing REAL ID driver’s licenses and IDs. This means that every state has met the federal standards for identification documents.
nilc.org keesingtechnologies.com


you keep your eyes closed, ignorant jackass.

you're never gonna see shit.

No, all States have Real IDs, but only six States have Real IDs that signify citizenship, the other forty four do not, in fact, Florida is now trying to rush thru a legislation to change their Real IDs

Another MAGA who doesn’t even know what is in Trump’s Act