Saint Guinefort
Verified User
I am always fascinated by the "love the sinner but hate the sin", especially for something that was inherent from their birth. It's like saying one doesn't hate people with red hair, they just hate red hair as a trait.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was due to inhospitality
- Thread starter AProudLefty
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I am always fascinated by the "love the sinner but hate the sin", especially for something that was inherent from their birth. It's like saying one doesn't hate people with red hair, they just hate red hair as a trait.
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
The Old Testament seems to allow both positions. There is a lot of great social justice and care for the poor written into the rules of the OT but there's also a lot of intolerance as well, esp for gay people.
Dutch Uncle
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It’s very rude, yes. Most Middle Eastern cultures have a custom of protecting the lives of guests over their own family. It’s an honor thing. Something most Trumpers would never understand.
Dutch Uncle
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Intelligent, educated and sane people know the OT was cherry-picked from Jewish writings in the Fourth Century in order to lay a foundation for what became the Catholic Church; the first Christian major religion…after they killed off all the others. LOL
The OT is the sacred scripture of the Hebrews. The only reason most mainline christians denominations care about the OT is for the prophecies, the creation story, and the Decalogue.
What do you mean "a lot" of the OT is intolerant of gays? It seems like bible thumpers can only cite one or two quotes, and they keep recycling them.
I would say every single human being born before 1950 thought the natural state of marriage was between man and woman.
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
I'd say suggesting ANYONE is an "abomination" is kind of a "lot". I get your point though, there's only a couple of places where it comes up. Just like there's only a couple places some of the good stuff comes up as well.
Dutch Uncle
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Slight correction: The OT is cherry-picked from sacred Hebrew scripture. It’s not complete. Those who canonized the Christian Bible were editing an religion and, therefore, were careful in their choices of which books to include.
This included diminishing the importance of women. Mary, who was probably the greatest Apostle, was relegated to the role of reformed whore, a complete distortion of the truth.
Good point.
Brittanica says the Hebrew bible has 24 books, and I think the Protestant OT has 24 books, so I'm not sure how much of the Hebrew version is missing in the Christian OT.
Ever since Erasmus and the Christian humanists of the Reformation, considerable effort was expended by Christian theologians to go back to the original Hebrew language sources to render an accurate translation of the OT. But translation is an art, so the rendering was never perfect
Dutch Uncle
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Not a Jewish scholar, but it appears only a few of the Jewish writings are included in the Christian Bible. There’s the Tanakh, Talmud and Torah. The Torah, as I understand it, is the first five books of the OT.
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/what-is-the-tanakh/
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
Obviously some books are missing in some Christian traditions (the Apocrypha).
Have you read "God's Secretaries" about the translation and work that went into the KJV? It's really an interesting read.
The Torah is the five books of Moses. They are in the OT.
The Talmud, Midrash, Mishnah are not part of the Hebrew bible, they are commentaries or legal rulings which are based on Hebrew tradition as well as on the Hebrew Bible (aka, TaNaKh)
Dutch Uncle
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So the Hebrew Bible and OT are identical?
Geeko Sportivo
Verified User
No, not identical. I've heard the organization is different, the Catholics use some books the Protestants don't, and then the inevitable problems with translation
I haven't read that book, thanks for mentioning it
NOT what I said though. I said God does NOT want us to hate gay people, or any people. We hate the abomination/sin.....
You need to ask yourself that question as you look in the mirror. First you need to pull the timber out of you're eye though so you can see more clearly.
Dutch Uncle
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I look in the mirror and see repentant. What do you see, Fatboy? Still unrepentant?
Dutch Uncle
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Who is “we”, Fatboy? The unrepentant adulterous liars and traitors who only fuck females?
How long have you been their spokesman? Is it elected or only measured by “donations”?
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
I have to ask: what if they are gay in the exact same way you are straight? Most gay people I've spoken with say they have felt different since their earliest memories. It was never a "choice" anymore than it was YOUR choice to like the opposite sex.
So if it wasn't a choice and they had no control over it and it is as much a part of who they are as your sexual preference is to who you are; how do you parse the difference between hating the sin and not the sinner?
I'm genuinely curious.