The Historicity of Jesus Christ

[Alter2Ego]

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.


Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.



PERSON #1:

Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.



PERSON #2:

Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.



Highlights on Flavius Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died).



PERSON #3:

Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Jesus Christ as a "god of the Christians."



Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

A. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his historical existence?



B. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?



C. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

 

[serenity]

What is the difference between town cryer, historian, journalist, entrepreneur, philanthropist, journalist, institutional ideology?

leaderships of faith, fellowships of believers, punishment for non compliance to social consensus within all 5 generation gaps living daily genetically separated as eternally separated per rotation alive since conceived until rotation dies?

Series parallel time occupying space equally adapting to living is never same total sum achieve between heartbeats of every lifetime alive now. heart begins beating in one's zygote form since conceived to have a unique set of chromosomes cradle to grave never same form since added a fertilized cell by previous generation of great great grandchildren.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

One very real Jesus Christ contribution to my life
was giving me something to say when I splash hot oil on myself cooking.

I didn't like to yell "Motherfucker" when the kids were little,
not that it would have phased my kids.

 

[Ross Dolan]

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.


Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.



PERSON #1:

Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.



PERSON #2:

Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.



Highlights on Flavius Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died).



PERSON #3:

Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Jesus Christ as a "god of the Christians."



Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

A. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his historical existence?



B. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?



C. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

So...none of the three actually saw this Jesus fellow. They reported what they saw reported to them...essentially passed on information that had been passed on to them.

There are hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of other people who have also reported what they have had reported to them about Jesus...about his existence and about his "deeds."

You, for instance.

So...what is your point?

That these three appear to be the first three outside the biblical reporters to do it?

 

[serenity]

One very real Jesus Christ contribution to my life
was giving me something to say when I splash hot oil on myself cooking.

I didn't like to yell "Motherfucker" when the kids were little,
not that it would have phased my kids.

Asking Jesus for forgiveness allows someone to never ask another human for permission to do as they please either as a dictator or elected leader of democracy socially against everyone else equally alive when daily evolving forward now since conceived like all life does naturally in this atmosphere now.

Intellectual higher purpose in life serving ideas of God, country, community theater creating more ways to life beyond adapting as displaced since conceived.

So much subliminal messaging done in your post. It is equal to what every reality does all the time, historically and global current events.
It was a humorist post.

 

[serenity]

So...none of the three actually saw this Jesus fellow. They reported what they saw reported to them...essentially passed on information that had been passed on to them.

There are hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of other people who have also reported what they have had reported to them about Jesus...about his existence and about his "deeds."

You, for instance.

So...what is your point?

That these three appear to be the first three outside the biblical reporters to do it?

Do you have to see every lifetime in this species to understand how all 8.14 billion are alive at the same time in their relative generation gap daily by the experiences you endure adapting in space now uniquely between consecutive heartbeats forward?

 

[Ross Dolan]

Do you have to see every lifetime in this species to understand how all 8.14 billion are alive at the same time in their relative generation gap daily by the experiences you endure adapting in space now uniquely between consecutive heartbeats forward?

No, I do not.

But to personally verify the existence of an individual I would have to SEE that individual...and speak with him/her.

Or, I could pass on information that was passed on to me about that individual's existence...which is what I said about the three individuals mentioned by alter ego.

What is your problem with that?

 

[serenity]

No, I do not.

But to personally verify the existence of an individual I would have to SEE that individual...and speak with him/her.

Or, I could pass on information that was passed on to me about that individual's existence...which is what I said about the three individuals mentioned by alter ego.

What is your problem with that?

Why are you suggesting it is my problem? I figured out the whole Jesus scenario in genetic time evolving from my personal time adapting to space eternally separated in my ancestral time displaced since conceived so far.

I understand evolving inside the moment I never stay same form as my fertilized cell arrived over 73 years ago and I haven't had my 73rd birthday yet between each heartbeat forward.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Why are you suggesting it is my problem?

You responded with a question. It sounded to me like you had a problem with my earlier answer.

I figured out the whole Jesus scenario in genetic time evolving from my personal time adapting to space eternally separated in my ancestral time displaced since conceived so far.

Interesting salad.

I understand evolving inside the moment I never stay same form as my fertilized cell arrived over 73 years ago and I haven't had my 73rd birthday yet between each heartbeat forward.

When you get to my age...15 years from now...I hope things clear up for you.

 

[serenity]

You responded with a question. It sounded to me like you had a problem with my earlier answer.




Interesting salad.




When you get to my age...15 years from now...I hope things clear up for you.

Things cleared up for me in 1982 when I discovered humanity was the absolute corruptor of each ancestor alive so far. Took me another 24 years to figure out how to counter psychological class warfare coming from 6 degrees of separating the 5 ancestral lineages' 5 generation gaps daily.

Serenity isn't a gift, it is the understanding of how corruption works daily so one can stop being part of the corruption going forward every generation arrived so far.

Never harming the corrupted souls believing life isn't self evident time adapting uniquely alive daily. 8.14 billion sole survivors adapting in space in plain sight.

What to escape manifested eternal hell protected by humanity without harming a lifetime corrupted since birth regardless which generation gap arrived?

Really is so simple you won't believe it is socially true.

 

[Obtenebrator]

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.

It may very well be that there was a historical Jesus. As a non-believer I'm A-OK with that being the case. And indeed many scholars now believe he was historically real. I think the key point is that we know vanishingly little about him from contemporary sources. I ASSUME the wonderful teachings attributed to him are, indeed, his, but I don't think we can necessarily count on the Gospels (the "Synoptic" ones) as being accurate histories given their inconsistencies, the fact that they were written decades after the events and all written from some particular bias for a particular audience.

And I can easily dismiss the miracles and the coming back to life stories.

But a historical, real itinerant apocalyptic preacher in first century Palestine would have been pretty common at the time.

Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

This was written what about 6 decades after the events? So Tacitus was relying on other sources. Perhaps it is accurate, but hardly a contemporary account from observation.

Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

There has been a fun and active conversation on this topic over on THIS THREAD

Basically there are two mentions in Josephus of Jesus. One, the Testimonium Flavianum, is the one most apologists such as yourself cite the most often. There are still disagreements on whether this is wholly forged or just partially Christianized. The second mention is merely that the brother of James the Just was called Christ. That one appears to be authentic.

Again, kind of weak tea overall. But, again, not much of a surprise if there was first century CE guy in Palestine called Jesus (Joshua) and Christ.

Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

Again, Pliny's letter to Trajan talking about the Christians appears to be from about 110 CE...so about a century after the events. Not sure that really counts because we know Christians existed. They still do.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

A. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his historical existence?

Only Josephus was writing anywhere near the time (but even then later as I recall) and indeed there is no problem with an historical dude named Jesus and we know Christians existed. Not really proof of the core of the Bible or the real reason why most people seek confirmation of historical Jesus.

B. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

Discussed above.

C. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

Discussed above.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Things cleared up for me in 1982 when I discovered humanity was the absolute corruptor of each ancestor alive so far. Took me another 24 years to figure out how to counter psychological class warfare coming from 6 degrees of separating the 5 ancestral lineages' 5 generation gaps daily.

Okay.

Don't mind me laughing.

 

[serenity]

Okay.

Don't mind me laughing.

Not offended at all. It is a diversion from what I said and how you reacted by suggesting what I said in intellectual gibberish, yet instinctively accurate to evolving in plain sight every lifetime separated by their ancestral position daily and their body evolving by thermodynamic principles.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Not offended at all. It is a diversion from what I said and how you reacted by suggesting what I said in intellectual gibberish, yet instinctively accurate to evolving in plain sight every lifetime separated by their ancestral position daily and their body evolving by thermodynamic principles.

Another excellent salad, serenity.

I suspect the "...by suggesting what I said in intellectual gibberish" might be a Freudian slip. Did you actually mean, "...by suggesting what I said in intellectual gibberish" (you may have) or did you mean to write, "...by suggesting what I said is intellectual gibberish?"

 

[Cypress]

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.


Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.



PERSON #1:

Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.



PERSON #2:

Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.



Highlights on Flavius Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died).



PERSON #3:

Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Jesus Christ as a "god of the Christians."



Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

A. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his historical existence?



B. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?



C. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

Denying the historicity of the man named Jesus of Nazareth is considered fringe by all reputable scholars with expertise in the field.

I don't know why you are limiting it to non-Christian sources. Is Plato an unreliable witness to Socrates because he was a fellow Greek and apologist for Socrates? All reputable historians consider that there is historical data which can be mined from the Christian bible.

Jesus is the most well-attested Palestinian Jew of the first century, hands down. In all, there are at least a couple dozen written accounts of Jesus, and perhaps a dozen or more individual authors. Jesus is more well-attested in writing than Socrates, the Buddha, Confucious, or than the emperor Xerxes of the Persian empire, and the emperor Ashoka of the Indian Mauryan empire.

Primary and secondary sources for Jesus include

Four canonical gospel accounts.
The epistles of Paul
The Gnostic gospel of Thomas
The Roman historian Tacitus
The Jewish historian Josephus.
And that doesn't include other possible secondary and tertiary sources like the Babylonian Talmud, Suetonius, and the possible (but debatable) ossuary of James, brother of Jesus.

What's remarkable is all the written attestation is about a peasant from Galilee. Literacy was limited in antiquity, and to the extent anyone went to the bother and expense of writing historical accounts it was virtually always about kings, emperors, leading aristocrats, or important generals.

The Jesus Myth movement requires there to be a vast web of lies and an empire-wide conspiracy to fabricate Jesus.

Josephus and Tacitus were well regarded historians, it is unlikely they were just easily duped into reporting vague rumors and innuendo.

Was the Chrisitan church just totally gullible and intent on spreading lies? Obviously not, there were many gospels and stories written about Jesus that the Church knew were fabrications and were rejected from the canonical writings.

Are there first hand witness accounts of Jesus? Probably. Mark's gospel is probably the first hand accounts of Peter as related to his companion Mark, though it can't be trusted as true biography in the way we expect biography to be written in the modern era.

Jesus is one of the most well attested people of the first century A.D., and the Jesus Myth movement is just a way for atheist bloggers and internet authors to generate more webcount clicks. The Jesus Myth movement is not taken seriously by reputable scholars.

 

[Commander Dutch]

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.


Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.



PERSON #1:

Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.



PERSON #2:

Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.



Highlights on Flavius Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died).



PERSON #3:

Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Jesus Christ as a "god of the Christians."



Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

A. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his historical existence?



B. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?



C. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

I have no doubt Jesus existed. It's no surprise it's mostly his followers who wrote about a Jewish rabbi carpenter out of the thousands the Romans executed. The proof for me isn't what was written about Jesus, but the ripple effect of his existence. While the man was turned into a myth, the effects of his words and passing have left an indelible effect upon Western civilization.

The debate for me isn't about whether or not Jesus existed since I believe only idiots don't believe he did, but whether he was divine or not. While I believe in God and that God created the Universe and all the laws within it, I also believe that God wouldn't "cheat" by violating the laws of creation. It's one reason why I believe in a Watchmaker God.

 

[serenity]

Another excellent salad, serenity.

I suspect the "...by suggesting what I said in intellectual gibberish" might be a Freudian slip. Did you actually mean, "...by suggesting what I said in intellectual gibberish" (you may have) or did you mean to write, "...by suggesting what I said is intellectual gibberish?"

You flinging fictional movie scenes isn't symbolism over substance metaphors.

 

[Cypress]

I have no doubt Jesus existed. It's no surprise it's mostly his followers who wrote about a Jewish rabbi carpenter out of the thousands the Romans executed. The proof for me isn't what was written about Jesus, but the ripple effect of his existence. While the man was turned into a myth, the effects of his words and passing have left an indelible effect upon Western civilization.

The debate for me isn't about whether or not Jesus existed since I believe only idiots don't believe he did, but whether he was divine or not. While I believe in God and that God created the Universe and all the laws within it, I also believe that God wouldn't "cheat" by violating the laws of creation. It's one reason why I believe in a Watchmaker God.

The earliest Gospel, Mark, doesn't even identify Jesus as divine or equivalent to God. He is identified in Mark as a son of God, which in the Jewish context just meant a human man who was acting with God's favor and agency.

Other people in the ancient Mediterranean tried to promote stories of men who moral teachers who worked miracles, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven. Appolonius, for example. But Appolonius never got any traction, and was widely considered to be a fake or fabrication,. There was something about Jesus that really inspired a mass movement in the way the other itinerant rabbis and apocalyptic prophets didn't.

 

[Commander Dutch]

So...none of the three actually saw this Jesus fellow. They reported what they saw reported to them...essentially passed on information that had been passed on to them.

There are hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of other people who have also reported what they have had reported to them about Jesus...about his existence and about his "deeds."

You, for instance.

So...what is your point?

That these three appear to be the first three outside the biblical reporters to do it?

Regardless of reports and how much mythology was injected into the life of Jesus decades after his execution, I'm a big fan of "Results Count".

The previously mentioned ripple effect is one example of results. The willingness of his followers to die for him such as executions of the Apostles, which appear to be more widely documented, is another example.

 

[Commander Dutch]

The earliest Gospel, Mark, doesn't even identify Jesus as divine or equivalent to God. He is identified in Mark as a son of God, which in the Jewish context just meant a human man who was acting with God's favor and agency.

Other people in the ancient Mediterranean tried to promote stories of men who moral teachers who worked miracles, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven. Appolonius, for example. But Appolonius never got any traction, and was widely considered to be a fake or fabrication,. There was something about Jesus that really inspired a mass movement in the way the other itinerant rabbis and apocalyptic prophets didn't.

Agreed.

IMO, the Jesus naysayers are more likely to be atheists simply denying the existence of anything beyond the physical universe than students of history.