The Historicity of Jesus Christ

[Ross Dolan]

You flinging fictional movie scenes isn't symbolism over substance metaphors.

So you did mean to characterize your comments as 'intellectual gibberish."

Okay.

In fact, I agree.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Regardless of reports and how much mythology was injected into the life of Jesus decades after his execution, I'm a big fan of "Results Count".

The previously mentioned ripple effect is one example of results. The willingness of his followers to die for him such as executions of the Apostles, which appear to be more widely documented, is another example.

Christianity succeeded.

Congratulations to Paul ARE due...and I extend them.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Agreed.

IMO, the Jesus naysayers are more likely to be atheists simply denying the existence of anything beyond the physical universe than students of history.

By the way...I am not a naysayer.

I have no independent knowledge of whether Jesus, as an individual person, existed...and I have no accounts which I would consider definitive. The question of whether a single person, Jesus, ever existed is still unanswered at this time. I will not hazard a guess of "yes" or "no" on the question.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed.

IMO, the Jesus naysayers are more likely to be atheists simply denying the existence of anything beyond the physical universe than students of history.

I think the Jesus Myth movement has a financial motive for atheist bloggers and authors.

They intentionally set impossibly high standards for the historicity of Jesus that they do not set for other figures from antiquity.

There are no reputable scholars with expertise in the field who give credence to the Jesus Myth movement.

 

[serenity]

So you did mean to characterize your comments as 'intellectual gibberish."

Okay.

In fact, I agree.

Social consensus is what gives reality facts beyond actual time evolving. Intellect is comparing actual results to what if anything else is possible about how everyone believes in separate ways evolving could have become everything going forward today.

manifested morality, legality, social ethics, and economical values beyond self evident results naturally timed part now.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Social consensus is what gives reality facts beyond actual time evolving. Intellect is comparing actual results to what if anything else is possible about how everyone believes in separate ways evolving could have become everything going forward today.

manifested morality, legality, social ethics, and economical values beyond self evident results naturally timed part now.

Get real, Youngster. You don't have much longer to make that move.

 

[Kafka]

Other people in the ancient Mediterranean tried to promote stories of men who moral teachers who worked miracles, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven.

Not to mention all the pagan stories which preceded Jesus' life which follow a similar arc as Jesus' life which caused Justin Martyr to come up with the concept of diabolical mimicry. One of the most fascinating debate strategies imaginable.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think the Jesus Myth movement has a financial motive for atheist bloggers and authors.

They intentionally set impossibly high standards for the historicity of Jesus that they do not set for other figures from antiquity.

There are no reputable scholars with expertise in the field who give credence to the Jesus Myth movement.

That makes a lot of "cents". Richard Dawkins, a biology professor, became rich hawking atheism to young, militant atheists.

 

[Kafka]

Regardless of reports and how much mythology was injected into the life of Jesus decades after his execution, I'm a big fan of "Results Count".

The previously mentioned ripple effect is one example of results. The willingness of his followers to die for him such as executions of the Apostles, which appear to be more widely documented, is another example.

909 people died voluntarily at the behest of Jim Jones
82 people died voluntarily at Waco
39 people killed themselves for Heaven's Gate
79 people offed themselves for the Solar Temple cult

Being willing to die for a belief is nothing new, nor is it an indicator that the beliefs one dies for are, ipso facto, real.

 

[Cypress]

Not to mention all the pagan stories which preceded Jesus' life which follow a similar arc as Jesus' life which caused Justin Martyr to come up with the concept of diabolical mimicry. One of the most fascinating debate strategies imaginable.

You're free to deny the historical Jesus existed.

 

[Kafka]

You're free to deny the historical Jesus existed.

I'm not. I am 100% fine with historical Jesus. Maybe some of the other stuff like the MIRACLES and the COMING BACK FROM THE DEAD were made up and leverage other traditions?

Just thought I'd add a bit of spice to your comment. And besides, you HAVE to admit that "Diabolical Mimicry" as an explanation is hilarious.

 

[Hume]

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.


Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.



PERSON #1:

Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.



PERSON #2:

Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.



Highlights on Flavius Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died).



PERSON #3:

Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Jesus Christ as a "god of the Christians."



Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

A. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his historical existence?



B. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?



C. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

Who cares.

 

[Cypress]

I'm not. I am 100% fine with historical Jesus.

No you're not. You have invested considerable effort casting aspersions on all written attestations of Jesus.

Maybe some of the other stuff like the MIRACLES and the COMING BACK FROM THE DEAD were made up and leverage other traditions?

Just thought I'd add a bit of spice to your comment. And besides, you HAVE to admit that "Diabolical Mimicry" as an explanation is hilarious.

I never said anything about believing the miracles, troll.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

By the way...I am not a naysayer.

I have no independent knowledge of whether Jesus, as an individual person, existed...and I have no accounts which I would consider definitive. The question of whether a single person, Jesus, ever existed is still unanswered at this time. I will not hazard a guess of "yes" or "no" on the question.

Your choice. As others have mentioned, while I never met George Washington or Thomas Jefferson either and, therefore, cannot verify their existence, I go by the results of what others have written about them and what's been alleged to have been written by them.

 

[Kafka]

No you're not.

Then you clearly are debating against someone who is not me. You need to learn how to read for more detail.

You have invested considerable effort casting aspersions on all written attestations of Jesus.

It astounds me how little you actually understood from what I wrote.

I never said anything about believing the miracles, troll.

So I'm a troll because you can't handle someone critiquing the evidences you raise. Got it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Who cares.

You do, Ms. Hume. Otherwise, why bother responding?

 

[Hume]

You do, Ms. Hume. Otherwise, why bother responding?

egad, take you off ignore and you're always a fucking jerkoff

 

[Dutch Uncle]

So I'm a troll because you can't handle someone critiquing the evidences you raise. Got it.

No, Perry. You're a troll because you post for reactions, not for discussion. You play at being an intellectual without the ability to be one so you troll all intellectuals as revenge.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

egad, take you off ignore and you're always a fucking jerkoff

Quit lying, Ms. Hume. You've never had me on ignore.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Your choice. As others have mentioned, while I never met George Washington or Thomas Jefferson either and, therefore, cannot verify their existence, I go by the results of what others have written about them and what's been alleged to have been written by them.

I do also.

BUT there are accounts of his existence backed by lots of evidence...all of which I consider definitive.

Not so with Jesus...especially the parts about his "miracles" and such.

There are no reliable accounts of Jesus. Mostly just the words of admirers...and others, like Paul, who took their word about his existence.

Accepting their accounts would be like accepting the accounts of MAGA moron's about Trump.

Jesus may well have existed...and if he did, he was socially and morally very advanced for his age. I have no problem using much of what he preached as the basis for my personal morality and inclinations.

I just wish more Christians felt that way.