The Historicity of Jesus Christ

[Hume]

IF Jesus actually existed (as an individual) or not is not really the point for me. The fact is that at some point, people decided that a GOD existed...and that the GOD had sent this Jesus to Earth to "die for our sins."

I do not know if there are any gods...and I certainly do not know what any that might exist may or may not do.

The fact that some people have made blind guess that a single GOD exists and decided to send its "only begotten" son down to Earth (this tiny speck of dust in an immense universe) to die in order to forgive people for offending him...sounds like garbage to me. The supposition that we are all "sinners" (we all offend this GOD) seems to me to more reasonably indicate a defect in the GOD than in the humans the GOD supposedly created.

And why would the GOD, who could easily forgive these supposed insults, demand that humans first torture and kill its son before doing so?

The Jesus who taught decent lessons seems like a good Joe. The notion that he was a "gift" from a GOD who wanted him tortured and killed in order to forgive all of humanity for constantly offending it...is a stretch.

I say, stick with the lessons...don't worry about who they came from...and get on with life.

More blind guesses by you.

 

[CIA TOTALITARIANISM]

Asking Jesus for forgiveness allows someone to never ask another human for permission to do as they please either as a dictator or elected leader of democracy socially against everyone else equally alive when daily evolving forward now since conceived like all life does naturally in this atmosphere now.

Intellectual higher purpose in life serving ideas of God, country, community theater creating more ways to life beyond adapting as displaced since conceived.

So much subliminal messaging done in your post. It is equal to what every reality does all the time, historically and global current events.
It was a humorist post.

Jesus's teaching about the golden rule and empathy are morally perfect.

 

[Cypress]

IF Jesus actually existed (as an individual) or not is not really the point for me. The fact is that at some point, people decided that a GOD existed...and that the GOD had sent this Jesus to Earth to "die for our sins."

I do not know if there are any gods...and I certainly do not know what any that might exist may or may not do.

The fact that some people have made blind guess that a single GOD exists and decided to send its "only begotten" son down to Earth (this tiny speck of dust in an immense universe) to die in order to forgive people for offending him...sounds like garbage to me. The supposition that we are all "sinners" (we all offend this GOD) seems to me to more reasonably indicate a defect in the GOD than in the humans the GOD supposedly created.

And why would the GOD, who could easily forgive these supposed insults, demand that humans first torture and kill its son before doing so?

The Jesus who taught decent lessons seems like a good Joe. The notion that he was a "gift" from a GOD who wanted him tortured and killed in order to forgive all of humanity for constantly offending it...is a stretch.

I say, stick with the lessons...don't worry about who they came from...and get on with life.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of an armchair historian.

No historical Jesus, no Christianity.
The influence of Christianity on western civilization and western history in terms of values, culture, politics, art, ethics, literature, even science and literacy is incalculable. One doesn't' even have to accept Jesus as a deity to accept that fact. Our language, values, ethics, history are pregnant with the stories, parables, ethics, sermons, values expressed in the New Testament, even for those who call themselves atheists or agnostics.

The trajectory of western civilization is an arc that stretches back to the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Hume]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of an armchair historian.

No historical Jesus, no Christianity.
The influence of Christianity on western civilization and western history in terms of values, culture, politics, art, ethics, literature, even science and literacy is incalculable. One doesn't' even have to accept Jesus as a deity to accept that fact. Our language, values, ethics, history are pregnant with the stories, parables, sermons, values expressed in the New Testament, even for those who call themselves atheists or agnostics.

The trajectory of western civilization is an arc that stretches back to the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

Only Christians believe that.

 

[Obtenebrator]

No, I said it because you and Perry PhD keep asking why it matters if Jesus was historical.

And may I ask why it is important?

If I found out tomorrow that Pythagoras was wholly made up it wouldn't change my world one whit so long as his TEACHINGS existed.

Sure I'll admit it would be a strange feeling to find out someone you THOUGHT existed didn't, but really at the end of the day what's the important bit?

And don't get me wrong (although you WILL lie about it) I can see how cool it is that there was a real guy named Jesus who had a huge mythology rise up around him about miracles and rising from the dead.

I just don't think it is absolutely NECESSARY that that be the case.

That's all I've ever said.

 

[Cypress]

Only Christians believe that.

Anyone who has studied the history of western civilization believes that.

 

[Hume]

Anyone who has studied the history of western civilization believes that.

Only a Christian like yourself believes that. Quit this bullshit that you speak for the "history of western civilization." You are just a Christian zealot.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of an armchair historian.

No historical Jesus, no Christianity.

More accurate, in my opinion, to say, no Paul...no Christianity. Jesus did not sell Christianity. Paul, and to a lesser extent, Peter sold it. Without them...it becomes like Jupiter, Zeus, Thor, etc.

The influence of Christianity on western civilization and western history in terms of values, culture, politics, art, ethics, literature, even science and literacy is incalculable.

I am willing to agree, although I think most of the influences on architecture, art, laws, politics...are more heavily influenced by ancient Greece and Rome. (Particularly Rome) The Roman empire made incredible strides in law, politics, art, and architecture during a 600 year period from its founding until about the time that Christianity came to exert significant influence over it. At that point, it stopped its progression and regressed to a point where the next 800 years came to be know to history as The Dark Ages. Almost no progress at all.

Our language, values ethics are pregnant with the stories, parables, sermons, values expressed in the New Testament, even for those who call themselves atheists or agnostics. One doesn't' even have to accept Jesus as a deity to accept that fact.

I agree with the provisions mentioned above.

The trajectory of western civilization is an arc that stretches back to the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

I agree conditionally. My disagreement comments above have to be dealt with.

 

[Cypress]

Only a Christian like yourself believes that. Quit this bullshit that you speak for the "history of western civilization." You are just a Christian zealot.

Even the preeminent agnostic/atheist religious scholar Bart Erhman will say that the influence of Christianity on western civilization is incalculable.

Even the famous militant atheist Richard Dawkins calls himself a 'cultural Christian', because his ethos, his values, and his cultural milieu can be traced directly to Christianity.

 

[Obtenebrator]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of an armchair historian.

No historical Jesus, no Christianity.

Well, there you're wrong. Many religions were founded upon a myth. Take the Mormons. We all kinda know it is 100% made up. But it still has a REAL following of people who REALLY BELIEVE IT.

Yes there was a faith that rose up around one particular itinernant apocalyptic teacher which was quite a common site at the time in Palestine. It is kind of interesting why THIS one took hold and not some other.

A valid and interesting avenue of exploration.

And it certainly adds to the evidence that there must be SOME kernel of truth. The bare minimum would be a physical real Jesus. But, again, faiths are made up all the time across history.

But it's quite something else to suggest MORE beyond that.

The influence of Christianity on western civilization and western history in terms of values, culture, politics, art, ethics, literature, even science and literacy is incalculable.

Agreed. Doesn't mean the religion is ipso facto "true". It may mean that there was a literal Jesus. But then again it may not even be necessary.

One doesn't' even have to accept Jesus as a deity to accept that fact.

But you beat me up because I"m OK with that. Why do you beat me up when I'm in agreement with you?

Our language, values, ethics, history are pregnant with the stories,

Pretty flowery language there, Wikipedia Scholar.

parables, ethics, sermons, values expressed in the New Testament, even for those who call themselves atheists or agnostics.

Then why do you treat those teachings like they are a joke? You seem to HATE and DESPISE Christ's teachings based on how you comport yourself on here.

The trajectory of western civilization is an arc that stretches back to the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

Thus sayet the WIKIPEDIA SCHOLAR!

 

[Hume]

Even the preeminent agnostic/atheist religious scholar Bart Erhman will say that the influence of Christianity on western civilization in incalculable.

I don't know who that is and don't care.

 

[Hume]

Even the famous militant atheist Richard Dawkins calls himself a 'cultural Christian', because his ethos, his values, and his cultural milieu can be traced directly to Christianity.

I do not care what Dawkins believes.

 

[Obtenebrator]

I get it.

My two cents:

I'm mad for Wikipedia. When it came on the scene I KNEW I'd be able to use it to convince everyone I'm super duper smart. I got my mom to buy me some books for my book shelf and I photographed them to show people how smart I am.

But I really like WIkipedia. That's my primary go-to resource.

The thing that really gets me mad is if someone asks questions about what I've learned on Wikipedia. I don't have any place to go becaue I don't actually UNDERSTAND any of the shit I post. But it makes me look SUPER SMART.

Actually Cypress, it doesn't really. But thanks for the confession.

 

[Mason 22]

One very real Jesus Christ contribution to my life
was giving me something to say when I splash hot oil on myself cooking.

I didn't like to yell "Motherfucker" when the kids were little,
not that it would have phased my kids.

Actually the Motherfucker was Cain! Now you know who Miss Cain was!

 

[Cypress]

More accurate, in my opinion, to say, no Paul...no Christianity. Jesus did not sell Christianity. Paul, and to a lesser extent, Peter sold it. Without them...it becomes like Jupiter, Zeus, Thor, etc.


I am willing to agree, although I think most of the influences on architecture, art, laws, politics...are more heavily influenced by ancient Greece and Rome. (Particularly Rome) The Roman empire made incredible strides in law, politics, art, and architecture during a 600 year period from its founding until about the time that Christianity came to exert significant influence over it. At that point, it stopped its progression and regressed to a point where the next 800 years came to be know to history as The Dark Ages. Almost no progress at all.


I agree with the provisions mentioned above.

I agree conditionally. My disagreement comments above have to be dealt with.

Yes, I posted earlier that Rome, Athens, and Jesus are the triad of western civilization.

Roman law and Roman arhitecture are a touchstone for the west.

Paul would not have bothered to evangelize to the gentiles without the historical Jesus, or his visions of Jesus. He was actually a Pharisee Jew who opporessed the Christianized Jews before his vision.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Even the preeminent agnostic/atheist religious scholar Bart Erhman will say that the influence of Christianity on western civilization is incalculable.

The only person on this forum who appears to disagree with you on this point is @Hume.

Hume seems to hate Christianity almost as much as you hate the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Paul would not have bothered to evangelize to the gentiles without the historical Jesus, or his visions of Jesus.

Let's go with that for a moment. Paul arguably is the father of Christianity in the form we all know it. And Paul NEVER MET JESUS.

Look at your sentence there: he had a VISION on the Road to Damascus. A VISION. Now presumably that kicked it all off for Paul.

If Paul had come to Christianity through his meetings with the Jerusalem Church I would be more willing to assume that a physical Jesus was one step closer to the ORIGIN of the faith.

But given the CENTRALITY of the Damascene Vision to the whole story of Paul I'm going to say that visions don't require a physical analogue. That's kind of why they are called "visions"

 

[serenity]

Jesus's teaching about the golden rule and empathy are morally perfect.

What does morality have to do with right and wrong when it is defining good and evil social compliance to will of the species pretending to be the chosen people.

 

[Obtenebrator]

What does morality have to do with right and wrong when it is defining good and

This is a clever gambit you are trying. Now you START your posts like you are saying something interesting or worth reading

evil social compliance to will of the species pretending to be the chosen people.

Then you start with the autocomplete shit.


Are you housebound? I can't figure out why this shit entertains you so much. I can see doing it a couple times, maybe 3 at which point it would get boring for a fully functional adult.

But you keep going on and on and on.

Maybe you can PM me if you want to explain why this is entertaining and you don't want to drop the facade. I am GENUINELY curious. I don't see many people who demonstrate what entertainment looks like the brain damaged.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Yes, I posted earlier that Rome, Athens, and Jesus are the triad of western civilization.

THE TRIAD of Western Civilization! That sounds amazingly erudite!

Roman law and Roman arhitecture are a touchstone for the west.

OOOoooOOooooo I'm all aquiver! The TOUCHSTONE for the West. Wow.

Gosh, Cypress, I was wrong: you are super deep and insightful.

Paul would not have bothered to evangelize to the gentiles without the historical Jesus,

Ironically the people who supposedly HUNG OUT WITH THE REAL JESUS DISAGREED WITH PAUL on proselytizing to the Gentiles.


Woah! That's wild.