The insanity defense

[Diuretic]

Most evil acts are done by people who can't really understand their actions or reality... this is called antisocial disorder. 75% of prisoners have it. It's incurable.

I remember watching a (taped) lecture by a former armed robber who did quite a bit of time in prison and who is now working for a charity-based offenders aid society. He made the point that "rehabilitation" is often useless with many violent criminals because they were never "habilitated" in the first place. I can agree with that.

 

[Thorn]

It's not "idiotic", rather it's archaic. You can read the origins of the rule in the narrative concerning the original crime. There's also an interesting case where a man with a brain tumour tried to beat his son to death because of the effect of the tumour. I'm not familiar with the defence mounted by Yates.

Andrea Yates drowned her three children in the bathtub following several months' suffering from a form of postpartum depression. In her case the depression was psychotic and she believed that god was telling her to do it to protect her children or some such. Initially she was convicted of murder, then was re-tried and found not guilty by reason of insanity. I didn't follow the case really closely, but had the impression that there were sufficient warning signs that either she should have been getting more treatment that she did, for longer that she did, or that her symptoms were being ignored by those near her who should have been more aware of their dangers.

 

[Thorn]

I remember watching a (taped) lecture by a former armed robber who did quite a bit of time in prison and who is now working for a charity-based offenders aid society. He made the point that "rehabilitation" is often useless with many violent criminals because they were never "habilitated" in the first place. I can agree with that.

I worked in that field for some time; my background was in management in finance so it was considered to give me credibility for life skills counselling, especially with regard to employment and social interactions. Our inmates were closely monitored, but those allowed off premises during the day were required to hold jobs and to pay board, and to participate in household chores just as they would in a family. Most were short-termers by the time we got them. We may have shown a handful a better way to deal with life, in a more conventional way, but truthfully it's impossible to evaluate what impact we may have had on a larger scale. Perhaps five years or so down the road someone may have realized that what we tried to tell them was right and ultimately worked for them. Many didn't return to the system while I was there; others came through again and again, but not through our program. Among the younger guys I think that the greatest influence that turned them around to a more law-abiding approach was time and maturity. At a certain age they began to develop a greater sense of self and of the personal consequences of their actions, and decided that they wanted more from life than they'd created for themselves. Then the non-crime life was more attractive and more rewarding.

Again, it was hard to evaluate our impact overall because a large proportion of our population was classed as forensic (psychiatric) in one way or another. That doesn't mean that most or even many actually went for the NGIR defense: it wouldn't have worked for most in any event.

 

[Diuretic]

Andrea Yates drowned her three children in the bathtub following several months' suffering from a form of postpartum depression. In her case the depression was psychotic and she believed that god was telling her to do it to protect her children or some such. Initially she was convicted of murder, then was re-tried and found not guilty by reason of insanity. I didn't follow the case really closely, but had the impression that there were sufficient warning signs that either she should have been getting more treatment that she did, for longer that she did, or that her symptoms were being ignored by those near her who should have been more aware of their dangers.

Much appreciated.

 

[Diuretic]

I worked in that field for some time; my background was in management in finance so it was considered to give me credibility for life skills counselling, especially with regard to employment and social interactions. Our inmates were closely monitored, but those allowed off premises during the day were required to hold jobs and to pay board, and to participate in household chores just as they would in a family. Most were short-termers by the time we got them. We may have shown a handful a better way to deal with life, in a more conventional way, but truthfully it's impossible to evaluate what impact we may have had on a larger scale. Perhaps five years or so down the road someone may have realized that what we tried to tell them was right and ultimately worked for them. Many didn't return to the system while I was there; others came through again and again, but not through our program. Among the younger guys I think that the greatest influence that turned them around to a more law-abiding approach was time and maturity. At a certain age they began to develop a greater sense of self and of the personal consequences of their actions, and decided that they wanted more from life than they'd created for themselves. Then the non-crime life was more attractive and more rewarding.

Again, it was hard to evaluate our impact overall because a large proportion of our population was classed as forensic (psychiatric) in one way or another. That doesn't mean that most or even many actually went for the NGIR defense: it wouldn't have worked for most in any event.

That's very interesting. Where I am Corrections (I'm not involved in Corrections) use the Canadian system of intensive case management (but I fear the poor buggers are under-funded and over-worked) but they have been quite successful and what you describe sounds very similar. I've dealt with a lot of criminals over the years and it's astounding, when you sit down and talk with them outside of a formal interview required for court, that they're so socially inept and almost naieve. Some of them were very good at what they did in terms of criminal activity but inept. They could rob a bank but didn't have a clue about how to open an account.

 

[Thorn]

That's very interesting. Where I am Corrections (I'm not involved in Corrections) use the Canadian system of intensive case management (but I fear the poor buggers are under-funded and over-worked) but they have been quite successful and what you describe sounds very similar. I've dealt with a lot of criminals over the years and it's astounding, when you sit down and talk with them outside of a formal interview required for court, that they're so socially inept and almost naieve. Some of them were very good at what they did in terms of criminal activity but inept. They could rob a bank but didn't have a clue about how to open an account.

That's right. You just reminded me of an 18-yr-old who told me that his job was robbing banks. And that he worked hard, too. Not well, though; he was in jail at the time.

BTW I did this work in Ottawa. At present I'm becoming a reformed Canadian (have just been approved for permanent residence in the US).

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

It's not "idiotic", rather it's archaic. You can read the origins of the rule in the narrative concerning the original crime. There's also an interesting case where a man with a brain tumour tried to beat his son to death because of the effect of the tumour. I'm not familiar with the defence mounted by Yates.

It was invented about 40 years before the arrival of modern psychology. The use of it in a modern legal system is idiotic.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I remember watching a (taped) lecture by a former armed robber who did quite a bit of time in prison and who is now working for a charity-based offenders aid society. He made the point that "rehabilitation" is often useless with many violent criminals because they were never "habilitated" in the first place. I can agree with that.

Rehabilitation for many violent offenders is often useless because there's no fullproof method to curing antisocial disorder. It's not an inability to understand right from wrong, but more an incapability of understanding the importance of right and wrong. I've heard that a disciplined enivroment in which antisocials are rewarded for doing things the "right" way works for a while, but if you let them out they'll certainly go back to their old habits. Reformed antisocials happen but they're rare and there's no fullproof method to get them there. It's not like treating depression. Some drugs may work, but the antisocials won't take them.


Your example just doesn't make sense.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

That's very interesting. Where I am Corrections (I'm not involved in Corrections) use the Canadian system of intensive case management (but I fear the poor buggers are under-funded and over-worked) but they have been quite successful and what you describe sounds very similar. I've dealt with a lot of criminals over the years and it's astounding, when you sit down and talk with them outside of a formal interview required for court, that they're so socially inept and almost naieve. Some of them were very good at what they did in terms of criminal activity but inept. They could rob a bank but didn't have a clue about how to open an account.

Sometimes I think antisocials are just one part of the psychopathic continuum. There are stupid psychopaths, these are the antisocials. They simply blatantly ignore rules. Then there are intelligent psychopaths, who use society itself as a tool to get what they want. I think that's most great leaders and charismatic personalities.

Of course, that's just speculation.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Andrea Yates drowned her three children in the bathtub following several months' suffering from a form of postpartum depression. In her case the depression was psychotic and she believed that god was telling her to do it to protect her children or some such. Initially she was convicted of murder, then was re-tried and found not guilty by reason of insanity. I didn't follow the case really closely, but had the impression that there were sufficient warning signs that either she should have been getting more treatment that she did, for longer that she did, or that her symptoms were being ignored by those near her who should have been more aware of their dangers.

Even if God were telling you to do it your not supposed to do it. Besides, she had depression, not schizophrenia. She may have used God as a springboard and an excuse for her actions but I doubt she was hallucanegic.

 

[Thorn]

Even if God were telling you to do it your not supposed to do it. Besides, she had depression, not schizophrenia. She may have used God as a springboard and an excuse for her actions but I doubt she was hallucanegic.

Hallucinations are not restricted to schizophrenia. All psychiatric classifications are determined by a compendium of symptoms described within a syndrome, and many are shared among syndromes. Then the classification is made based on how many symptoms are occurring for this patient, and for how long a period of time.

Moreover, one of the many classifications of endogenous depression is psychotic depression, which may be characterized in part by delusions. This is the form that she was suffering. You're assuming that a psychotic person is going to be rational enough to understand that it isn't a god that's speaking to him/her and that the social mores learned are supposed to supercede whatever the impression is of the "god" or "neighbor's dog", or whatever. This doesn't happen. Conventional morality as you and I understand it doesn't even factor into the actions committed in the depths of psychosis. It's really hard to understand that unless you've dealt with it, especially among many patients.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Hallucinations are not restricted to schizophrenia. All psychiatric classifications are determined by a compendium of symptoms described within a syndrome, and many are shared among syndromes. Then the classification is made based on how many symptoms are occurring for this patient, and for how long a period of time.

Moreover, one of the many classifications of endogenous depression is psychotic depression, which may be characterized in part by delusions. This is the form that she was suffering. You're assuming that a psychotic person is going to be rational enough to understand that it isn't a god that's speaking to him/her and that the social mores learned are supposed to supercede whatever the impression is of the "god" or "neighbor's dog", or whatever. This doesn't happen. Conventional morality as you and I understand it doesn't even factor into the actions committed in the depths of psychosis. It's really hard to understand that unless you've dealt with it, especially among many patients.

I'm not assuming that. I'm just saying it doesn't excuse them.

 

[Thorn]

I'm not assuming that. I'm just saying it doesn't excuse them.

I swear, if you spent as much time as I have with patients, you'd see things differently.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I swear, if you spent as much time as I have with patients, you'd see things differently.

"Kick ole' green teeth in the knee."


My sister is getting a degree in CLINICAL psychology, and history. She's about to have her bachelor's, and then she's going post-graduate.

She told me the quote above, from a psychotic patient.

Psychosis is an inability to understand reality in a human way. Psychopathy and sociopathy is a lack of the emotions that make us human. Sociopaths are much more difficult to sympathize with that any other type of mental illness, because of their reprehensible actions and their utter lack of remorse. A psychotic person may do something reprehensible but they'll be so confused it's hard not to feel sorry for them.

 

[Diuretic]

That's right. You just reminded me of an 18-yr-old who told me that his job was robbing banks. And that he worked hard, too. Not well, though; he was in jail at the time.

BTW I did this work in Ottawa. At present I'm becoming a reformed Canadian (have just been approved for permanent residence in the US).

The 18 yr old didn't understand risk management

Ottawa, haven't been there yet, spent a lot of time in TO though. Interesting work - I thought we had the right approach (which we borrowed in versions Mark 1 and Mark 2 from the Canadians). It would be even better (here) if we had a state government that actually funded the programmes properly rather than banging on about law and order and heavier sentencing. That rhetoric, designed to play to the masses, gives me the shits.

 

[Diuretic]

It was invented about 40 years before the arrival of modern psychology. The use of it in a modern legal system is idiotic.

Modern American psychology or modern European psychology. I'm reaching back now but I think I remember William James in the US and Wilhelm Wundt in Europe as being the fathers of modern psychology.

M'Naghten's case was in 1843.

Now, how do they fit together?

 

[Diuretic]

Rehabilitation for many violent offenders is often useless because there's no fullproof method to curing antisocial disorder. It's not an inability to understand right from wrong, but more an incapability of understanding the importance of right and wrong. I've heard that a disciplined enivroment in which antisocials are rewarded for doing things the "right" way works for a while, but if you let them out they'll certainly go back to their old habits. Reformed antisocials happen but they're rare and there's no fullproof method to get them there. It's not like treating depression. Some drugs may work, but the antisocials won't take them.


Your example just doesn't make sense.

In my experience it's about timing, you have to catch them early to turn them around. There's a point at which rehabilitation won't work and all you can do is keep incarcerating them each time they get caught - the old "habitual criminal" approach.

I thnk I'm putting out too many complex ideas here and they're difficult to follow.

 

[Diuretic]

Sometimes I think antisocials are just one part of the psychopathic continuum. There are stupid psychopaths, these are the antisocials. They simply blatantly ignore rules. Then there are intelligent psychopaths, who use society itself as a tool to get what they want. I think that's most great leaders and charismatic personalities.

Of course, that's just speculation.

Have you ever dealt with a sociopath? I mean sat down in the same room with one and tried to interview them?

 

[Said1]

That's right. You just reminded me of an 18-yr-old who told me that his job was robbing banks. And that he worked hard, too. Not well, though; he was in jail at the time.

BTW I did this work in Ottawa. At present I'm becoming a reformed Canadian (have just been approved for permanent residence in the US).

Where in Ottawa, the RO?

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Have you ever dealt with a sociopath? I mean sat down in the same room with one and tried to interview them?

There are plenty of sociopaths all over the place and they're not all in prison. I've probably talked to one before but they're not all that obvious.

And, of course, as I said before, it's all just speculation. Sociopaths in general are very ignorant.

Sociopathy and psychopathy are different, of course. I was generalizing.