The New Driving Force of Identity Politics Is Class, Not Race

[cawacko]

This is one of the best threads I have ever seen on JPP. Thoughtful, respectful, realistic, and grounded in facts. Or at least opinions that can be supported by facts.

The intellectual assessment of this election will continue for a very long time. Yes, I think the Democrats messed up in a lot of ways. They usually do.

Biden was not a viable reelection candidate and held on until a disastrous performance on an international stage. Picking Harris as his replacement simply because she is the VP would not have been necessary if Biden and the DNC had allowed an open primary.

Identity politics is still interesting to me because there is a necessary conflict between what the Woke call privilege and the defensiveness that causes in the majority because not all of their lives are easy. We have not resolved minority discrimination in this country.

The most concerning part of this election for me is that the Republican party chose Trump. Everything above withstanding, the man is not qualified to lead a country. He hurts people, demeans and degrades them, lies as often as he speaks, and encourages the worst instincts in other people.

Trump won the election, but the country lost in an horrific campaign. The ongoing rhetoric leads me to believe that things will get much, much worse before they get better, but maybe some of us can still seek out the redeeming qualities in ourselves and others.

Mott's an old school poster. Doesn't come around much anymore but he was on here back when there was decent discussion to be had. He's from small town/rural Ohio. He was a Republican (or right leaning) back when but in more recent times is now left leaning. But what's interesting about him is he's not a hard core partisan or ideologue so even though he's left leaning he offers insight into how he feels Democrats have abandoned to a degree the (white) rural working class folks he grew up around (Mott is educated himself). Thus it makes for interesting and often insightful discussion (with him) because it's something different rather than our normal partisan battles.

As far the article in the OP identity politics will likely never leave us but I can see it fading more into the background years from now. And I don't think there will be a working class revolution like Bernie wants but this idea of identity being built around one's education level does seem to hold some current weight.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Damn man, hope everything ends up ok.

There's a podcast I listen to where a guy named Daniel Bessner is an occasional guest. Bessner is a history professor at Univ of Washington, intellectual and what in the past we would call a man of the left (to him Bernie is a centrist). I hold very different beliefs than him but I find him interesting nonetheless and he very much holds Bernie's vision of a working class coalition and despises that, in his opinion, the Democrats have turned their party (the insiders who run it) over to the professional managers (all college degreed folks who live comfortable lives and are out of touch with the working class).

Like you referenced he talks about Clinton and this move by the party to neoliberalism. But my question to you is this. With the growth of technology and globalization times had to change right? They mentioned something like 8% of jobs today (in America) are in manufacturing. You have both parties saying they want to bring manufacturing jobs back but how realistic is that? It's like trying to turn the economy back 50 years, which doesn't seem possible.

What's the future in that regard?

It’s more than realistic. It’s happening right now. Intels investment in two massive microchip plants in Arizona and Ohio. We are also seeing significant growth in the petrochemical industry not just in extraction but more significantly in the investment in down stream production of secondary petroleum products.

What I think may happen is we will see significant growth in manufacturing in places like the Gulf Coast, the Texas Triangle, the North Carolina triangle, the North East and the Great Lakes region.

I think we will be seeing substantial industrial growth in Mexico too as they are already our largest trader partner. There’s already growth in the microchip industry there for lower end microchips that impacted the domestic auto industry with delays I production due to the unavailability of these chips.

Mexico is also probably better situated for significant industrial growth as the have better demographics than the U.S. with a younger population across the board, though the U.S. demographics are going to take a hit with Boomers exiting the work force we still have better demographics for economic growth than countries like Germany and China and Japan. I’d say to a lot of young folks out there that learning Spanish will definitely increase your career opportunities particularly if your skill set is in technical field and trades.

So yes, I think as a result of what happened in the U.S. during the COVID induced collapse of international supply chains not only opened the eyes of the Gods of Wall Street that there supply chains were anything but secure it also opened the eyes of our government that it was also a national security issue.

So yes, I do believe will we be seeing significant growth in domestic manufacturing. How much growth would be difficult to predict but is happening right now as we speak.

 

[cawacko]

It’s more than realistic. It’s happening right now. Intels investment in two massive microchip plants in Arizona and Ohio. We are also seeing significant growth in the petrochemical industry not just in extraction but more significantly in the investment in down stream production of secondary petroleum products.

What I think may happen is we will see significant growth in manufacturing in places like the Gulf Coast, the Texas Triangle, the North Carolina triangle, the North East and the Great Lakes region.

I think we will be seeing substantial industrial growth in Mexico too as they are already our largest trader partner. There’s already growth in the microchip industry there for lower end microchips that impacted the domestic auto industry with delays I production due to the unavailability of these chips.

Mexico is also probably better situated for significant industrial growth as the have better demographics than the U.S. with a younger population across the board, though the U.S. demographics are going to take a hit with Boomers exiting the work force we still have better demographics for economic growth than countries like Germany and China and Japan. I’d say to a lot of young folks out there that learning Spanish will definitely increase your career opportunities particularly if your skill set is in technical field and trades.

So yes, I think as a result of what happened in the U.S. during the COVID induced collapse of international supply chains not only opened the eyes of the Gods of Wall Street that there supply chains were anything but secure it also opened the eyes of our government that it was also a national security issue.

So yes, I do believe will we be seeing significant growth in domestic manufacturing. How much growth would be difficult to predict but is happening right now as we speak.

I'm reading what you are saying and I acknowledge this is not an area where I feel as well informed. That said it seems to me you are arguing, if I'm understanding correctly, for an American industrial policy (which is what we've been doing the past couple of years) where massive amounts of money are being pumped into manufacturing and chips by the federal gov't. I question the wisdom and sustainability of that.

As far as demographics you are spot on. European growth is slow as a result and hard as it is to believe with the population of China, they are suffering as well (you have a one child for as long as they did and now they are paying the price). You correctly point out to demographic issues in America with Boomers retiring and the need for more (younger) workers paying into our entitlement programs while also not suffocating economic growth.

I suppose two things can be true, there can be growth in manufacturing jobs while at the same time it's going back to what it was 50 plus years ago.

 

[archives]

I think a lot more is being made of this election than what actually occurred, keep in mind, Harris did not motivate the Democrat vote, finishing close to eight million less than Biden did in 2020, while Trump picked up less than two million votes he earned in 2020. Telling sign given the 2022 election was the reversal, and the Republican candidate this year won the popular vote for only the second time in thirty years

Given this reality, although there were small shifts amongst traditional voting blocks, I wouldn’t be quick to interpret such as transition points, especially considering economics is the major issue in probably 90% of all elections.

Year ago I recall studying ethnic voting, what ethnic groups voting which party, and the historians view that the ties were never really emotional nor ideological but rather materialistic, Harris appeal to democracy and individual rights was never going to sell

 

[Damocles]

Mott's an old school poster. Doesn't come around much anymore but he was on here back when there was decent discussion to be had. He's from small town/rural Ohio. He was a Republican (or right leaning) back when but in more recent times is now left leaning. But what's interesting about him is he's not a hard core partisan or ideologue so even though he's left leaning he offers insight into how he feels Democrats have abandoned to a degree the (white) rural working class folks he grew up around (Mott is educated himself). Thus it makes for interesting and often insightful discussion (with him) because it's something different rather than our normal partisan battles.

As far the article in the OP identity politics will likely never leave us but I can see it fading more into the background years from now. And I don't think there will be a working class revolution like Bernie wants but this idea of identity being built around one's education level does seem to hold some current weight.

I don't remember him ever being republican.

 

[Bigdog]

Nixon's Southern Strategy was to force Southern schools to integrate.

"The (Nixon) plan proved pivotal to the end of school segregation. In fall 1969, 600,000 blacks attended desegregated schools in the South; one year later 3 million had been integrated. By percentage in 1968, nearly 70 percent of black children were segregated from their white peers; by the end of Nixon’s first term it was just 8 percent."

Nixon's Record on Civil Rights

Vice President Richard Nixon with Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. on June 13, 1957. (Henry Griffin/AP) Introduction Richard Nixon is credited for having a strong record on foreign policy, but […]

www.nixonfoundation.org

Nixon was a Quaker. The Quakers were the root of the Christian Abolitionist movement.

The dem version of the Strategy is a myth based on zero evidence and a "secret language" claiming Black Americana like high taxes.

Repubs never ran on N,N,N as Lee Atwater hypothesized. And Atwater was in high school when Nixon won in 68.

 

[cawacko]

I don't remember him ever being republican.

If he wasn't he at least acknowledged voting for them (at least some of the time) in the past. (that's my recollection)

 

[Damocles]

It’s more than realistic. It’s happening right now. Intels investment in two massive microchip plants in Arizona and Ohio. We are also seeing significant growth in the petrochemical industry not just in extraction but more significantly in the investment in down stream production of secondary petroleum products.

What I think may happen is we will see significant growth in manufacturing in places like the Gulf Coast, the Texas Triangle, the North Carolina triangle, the North East and the Great Lakes region.

I think we will be seeing substantial industrial growth in Mexico too as they are already our largest trader partner. There’s already growth in the microchip industry there for lower end microchips that impacted the domestic auto industry with delays I production due to the unavailability of these chips.

Mexico is also probably better situated for significant industrial growth as the have better demographics than the U.S. with a younger population across the board, though the U.S. demographics are going to take a hit with Boomers exiting the work force we still have better demographics for economic growth than countries like Germany and China and Japan. I’d say to a lot of young folks out there that learning Spanish will definitely increase your career opportunities particularly if your skill set is in technical field and trades.

So yes, I think as a result of what happened in the U.S. during the COVID induced collapse of international supply chains not only opened the eyes of the Gods of Wall Street that there supply chains were anything but secure it also opened the eyes of our government that it was also a national security issue.

So yes, I do believe will we be seeing significant growth in domestic manufacturing. How much growth would be difficult to predict but is happening right now as we speak.

What's UP?!!!

Where have you been, man?

 

[cawacko]

I think a lot more is being made of this election than what actually occurred, keep in mind, Harris did not motivate the Democrat vote, finishing close to eight million less than Biden did in 2020, while Trump picked up less than two million votes he earned in 2020. Telling sign given the 2022 election was the reversal, and the Republican candidate this year won the popular vote for only the second time in thirty years

Given this reality, although there were small shifts amongst traditional voting blocks, I wouldn’t be quick to interpret such as transition points, especially considering economics is the major issue in probably 90% of all elections.

Year ago I recall studying ethnic voting, what ethnic groups voting which party, and the historians view that the ties were never really emotional nor ideological but rather materialistic, Harris appeal to democracy and individual rights was never going to sell

I would separate black people from other ethnic groups. There's is a unique experience and as such being a Democrat is often very much a part of "being black".

It is fair to say this transition they are talking about is fluid and thus could reverse itself. And Trump is a unique figure so it remains to be seen how people react without him on the ballot. But I don't think the article is wrong recognizing the changes though.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I'm reading what you are saying and I acknowledge this is not an area where I feel as well informed. That said it seems to me you are arguing, if I'm understanding correctly, for an American industrial policy (which is what we've been doing the past couple of years) where massive amounts of money are being pumped into manufacturing and chips by the federal gov't. I question the wisdom and sustainability of that.

As far as demographics you are spot on. European growth is slow as a result and hard as it is to believe with the population of China, they are suffering as well (you have a one child for as long as they did and now they are paying the price). You correctly point out to demographic issues in America with Boomers retiring and the need for more (younger) workers paying into our entitlement programs while also not suffocating economic growth.

I suppose two things can be true, there can be growth in manufacturing jobs while at the same time it's going back to what it was 50 plus years ago.

No it won’t be like 50-60 years ago but it’s going to be in different industry sectors some of which did not exist back then.

I think one thing that would indicate our government is seriously involved in economic growth is if the abolish The Jones Maritime act which, particularly in the inland coastal area, the Great Lakes Region and the Mississippi River network, would bring a lot of international trade into these parts of the country. So I don’t think the industrial growth we’re witnessing will be anything like the past.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Its not nonsense....refusing to use our education system for education, but instead for Death Cult indoctrination, is Evil.

It isn't a "Death Cult" in this case, but simple racism. Oregon's governor is saying in effect, Children of color (to use her preferred language) are simply too stupid to meet our education standards. Therefore, in the name of equality, we will eliminate those so they can be equal...

Let the idiocrasy flourish!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

What's UP?!!!

Where have you been, man?

Ah just been a bit burned out on politics. To much vitriol going around. I’ve also had a promotion at work to a District Technical Managers position that’s been eating up a lot of time and energy training college graduates in HAZMAT management as the demand for professionals with the requisite education and field experience far exceeds supply so we’ve had to adapt and train recent graduates and let me tell you I have never had the problem in training and mentoring new employees like Gen Z kids. When I tell them things like, don’t email a customer but call them and get the work done now, they look at me like a three headed monster an it’s like they all want to work isolated by themselves, in a closet that locks from the inside. Gen Z is one strange Generation but having said that they’re not as worthless as millennials.

That and my 45 yo misses has been going through a midlife crisis after both her elderly parents passed away so the last year has been busy and stressful on all fronts. LOL

 

[cawacko]

Ah just been a bit burned out on politics. To much vitriol going around. I’ve also had a promotion at work to a District Technical Managers position that’s been eating up a lot of time and energy training college graduates in HAZMAT management as the demand for professionals with the requisite education and field experience far exceeds supply so we’ve had to adapt and train recent graduates and let me tell you I have never had the problem in training and mentoring new employees like Gen Z kids. When I tell them things like, don’t email a customer but call them and get the work done now, they look at me like a three headed monster an it’s like they all want to work isolated by themselves, in a closet that locks from the inside. Gen Z is one strange Generation but having said that they’re not as worthless as millennials.

That and my 45 yo misses has been going through a midlife crisis after both her elderly parents passed away so the last year has been busy and stressful on all fronts. LOL

Holy sh*t man. My wife directs a pre-school and she's just a really really nice good God fearing woman. She's not that into politics and is the type of person as a parent you would feel very comfortable knowing she is running your kid's school. (she's done a hell of a job growing her school)

She came home two days ago and screamed like I've never heard her scream before and she just yelled "F'ing Gen Z Kids!!!" I won't go into the details but it involved several of these Gen Z teachers and stuff they were doing. If you heard the stories your jaw would drop.

Now I know there are millions of kids in each generation so you can't judge the total by the actions of a few but where there's smoke there's fire and you talk to a lot of employers and the stunts Gen Z kids pull and it perks you up.

 

[Damocles]

Ah just been a bit burned out on politics. To much vitriol going around. I’ve also had a promotion at work to a District Technical Managers position that’s been eating up a lot of time and energy training college graduates in HAZMAT management as the demand for professionals with the requisite education and field experience far exceeds supply so we’ve had to adapt and train recent graduates and let me tell you I have never had the problem in training and mentoring new employees like Gen Z kids. When I tell them things like, don’t email a customer but call them and get the work done now, they look at me like a three headed monster an it’s like they all want to work isolated by themselves, in a closet that locks from the inside. Gen Z is one strange Generation but having said that they’re not as worthless as millennials.

That and my 45 yo misses has been going through a midlife crisis after both her elderly parents passed away so the last year has been busy and stressful on all fronts. LOL

Yeah, Millennials at work are insanely sensitive and do things like take "mental health days"... I'm like, what? We have work to do, man! I do like the Gen Z response to my texts, but it takes talking to them to get them to answer my call. We give them a cell, we expect them to answer it when we call...

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I don't remember him ever being republican.

Oh I thought you knew that Damo. I was formerly a card carrying Republican from 1981 to 2003. I joined my local Republican in the county where I lived at the time as a Young Republican in College.

I was very actively engaged and had some very good experiences of how politics works practically at the local level. I was even part of what our little clique called “The Crew” and we were very much into the dirty tricks part of how the political game is played.

I began to become alienated with the GOP in the mid 90’s as I became disillusioned with Supply Side Economics utter failure which I had once fully supported under Reagan. The extent to which the Southern Strategy and how it had changed the GOP frustrated me as it became very clear moderates were no longer welcome but I still retained my allegiance and membership to the party.

Things turned really sour for me at a GOP State convention here in Ohio when I got in an argument with that moron Jim Jordan who is the most willfully ignorant person I have ever met. That was in 96. He was spouting about radically changing the State Board of Education so that Biology Curriculums could be changed to permit the teaching of creationism in high school biology class.

I commented to Jordan that was a horrible idea as the GOP could not afford to be seen as the anti-science party. Jordan, as is typical of him, went ballistic and got right in my face about it. Unfortunately for him I was just a tad bit better informed on Evolutionary Theory than he was. So every critique he made about Evolution being a failed theory I dismantled calmly like I was taking to an 8 year old. Each time I swatted down one of his false comments the little munchkin got angrier and angrier and kept stepping inside my personal space in a threatening manner and arguing eyeball to chin. So after I had batted down one of his comments and a couple of folks had laughed at him he chest bumped me and whispered to me if I would like to take our debate outside. I put my hand on his chest and pushed him back while taking a step back and said “Dude get some breath mints”. I then walked away from him to some chuckles from the group though it didn’t escape my notice that I won the debate but lost the crowd.

That event put me into alienation mode but I still remained a dues paying party member until 2003. I then left the GOP in 2003 over the immoral invasion of Iraq which for me was the straw that broke the camels back. Unfortunately most of the predictions I made about the Iraq war came true.

At that time I began mostly voting Democrat but I have never been a member of the Democratic Party and I’ve still retained my centrist albeit somewhat libertarian views. Though I was and still am a critic of the Libertarian political party.

On the political compus test I score just a smidge to the left of dead center mainly because I reject supply side economics and most socialist policies. On the authoritarian vs libertarian scale I’m smack dab in the middle on the libertarian side of the scale.

Now after this last election I don’t identify with either party due to the major changes in both parties coalitions.

Right now it looks like which party can advance the most stupid policies. The Trump populist or the progressive liberals. So I’m kind of in wait and see mode and, as I stated above I’m finding this historical event to be quite fascinating and I haven’t a clue how it’s going to shake out other than to predict that unless the Centrist liberals kick the progressive wing of the party to the curbside the Democrats will be a minority party for a generation or more.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Yeah, Millennials at work are insanely sensitive and do things like take "mental health days"... I'm like, what? We have work to do, man! I do like the Gen Z response to my texts, but it takes talking to them to get them to answer my call. We give them a cell, we expect them to answer it when we call...

Yea we have the same issue where I work.

 

[cawacko]

No it won’t be like 50-60 years ago but it’s going to be in different industry sectors some of which did not exist back then.

I think one thing that would indicate our government is seriously involved in economic growth is if the abolish The Jones Maritime act which, particularly in the inland coastal area, the Great Lakes Region and the Mississippi River network, would bring a lot of international trade into these parts of the country. So I don’t think the industrial growth we’re witnessing will be anything like the past.

I’ll be honest, I’ve never of heard of that act (outside you bringing it up once before) so I can’t speak to it one way or the other.

(I suppose my initial reaction would be if it could have that big of an impact it seems like it would get more publicity. But maybe it does in your area.)

 

[cawacko]

Oh I thought you knew that Damo. I was formerly a card carrying Republican from 1981 to 2003. I joined my local Republican in the county where I lived at the time as a Young Republican in College.

I was very actively engaged and had some very good experiences of how politics works practically at the local level. I was even part of what our little clique called “The Crew” and we were very much into the dirty tricks part of how the political game is played.

I began to become alienated with the GOP in the mid 90’s as I became disillusioned with Supply Side Economics utter failure which I had once fully supported under Reagan. The extent to which the Southern Strategy and how it had changed the GOP frustrated me as it became very clear moderates were no longer welcome but I still retained my allegiance and membership to the party.

Things turned really sour for me at a GOP State convention here in Ohio when I got in an argument with that moron Jim Jordan who is the most willfully ignorant person I have ever met. That was in 96. He was spouting about radically changing the State Board of Education so that Biology Curriculums could be changed to permit the teaching of creationism in high school biology class.

I commented to Jordan that was a horrible idea as the GOP could not afford to be seen as the anti-science party. Jordan, as is typical of him, went ballistic and got right in my face about it. Unfortunately for him I was just a tad bit better informed on Evolutionary Theory than he was. So every critique he made about Evolution being a failed theory I dismantled calmly like I was taking to an 8 year old. Each time I swatted down one of his false comments the little munchkin got angrier and angrier and kept stepping inside my personal space in a threatening manner and arguing eyeball to chin. So after I had batted down one of his comments and a couple of folks had laughed at him he chest bumped me and whispered to me if I would like to take our debate outside. I put my hand on his chest and pushed him back while taking a step back and said “Dude get some breath mints”. I then walked away from him to some chuckles from the group though it didn’t escape my notice that I won the debate but lost the crowd.

That event put me into alienation mode but I still remained a dues paying party member until 2003. I then left the GOP in 2003 over the immoral invasion of Iraq which for me was the straw that broke the camels back. Unfortunately most of the predictions I made about the Iraq war came true.

At that time I began mostly voting Democrat but I have never been a member of the Democratic Party and I’ve still retained my centrist albeit somewhat libertarian views. Though I was and still am a critic of the Libertarian political party.

On the political compus test I score just a smidge to the left of dead center mainly because I reject supply side economics and most socialist policies. On the authoritarian vs libertarian scale I’m smack dab in the middle on the libertarian side of the scale.

Now after this last election I don’t identify with either party due to the major changes in both parties coalitions.

Right now it looks like which party can advance the most stupid policies. The Trump populist or the progressive liberals. So I’m kind of in wait and see mode and, as I stated above I’m finding this historical event to be quite fascinating and I haven’t a clue how it’s going to shake out other than to predict that unless the Centrist liberals kick the progressive wing of the party to the curbside the Democrats will be a minority party for a generation or more.

I have no data for this but I'm willing to bet there are a fair number of people who have had a journey similar to yours in the sense of either changing political parties in their lifetime or at least going from a member of a party to an independent.

What you said that jumped out at me is the work you did for the Republican Party and seeing what goes on behind the scenes. On a board like (and other places) many hold their party in almost deity like status. Like saying something (bad) about their party is equivalent to attacking their family. I have two acquittances that run (Democratic) political campaigns in SF. Man, listening to them you learn real quickly what's most important is money and power (i.e. winning).

When you peel the onion back so to speak that romanticism some have (my party really cares... etc.) goes out the window fast.

 

[Damocles]

Oh I thought you knew that Damo. I was formerly a card carrying Republican from 1981 to 2003. I joined my local Republican in the county where I lived at the time as a Young Republican in College.

I was very actively engaged and had some very good experiences of how politics works practically at the local level. I was even part of what our little clique called “The Crew” and we were very much into the dirty tricks part of how the political game is played.

I began to become alienated with the GOP in the mid 90’s as I became disillusioned with Supply Side Economics utter failure which I had once fully supported under Reagan. The extent to which the Southern Strategy and how it had changed the GOP frustrated me as it became very clear moderates were no longer welcome but I still retained my allegiance and membership to the party.

Things turned really sour for me at a GOP State convention here in Ohio when I got in an argument with that moron Jim Jordan who is the most willfully ignorant person I have ever met. That was in 96. He was spouting about radically changing the State Board of Education so that Biology Curriculums could be changed to permit the teaching of creationism in high school biology class.

I commented to Jordan that was a horrible idea as the GOP could not afford to be seen as the anti-science party. Jordan, as is typical of him, went ballistic and got right in my face about it. Unfortunately for him I was just a tad bit better informed on Evolutionary Theory than he was. So every critique he made about Evolution being a failed theory I dismantled calmly like I was taking to an 8 year old. Each time I swatted down one of his false comments the little munchkin got angrier and angrier and kept stepping inside my personal space in a threatening manner and arguing eyeball to chin. So after I had batted down one of his comments and a couple of folks had laughed at him he chest bumped me and whispered to me if I would like to take our debate outside. I put my hand on his chest and pushed him back while taking a step back and said “Dude get some breath mints”. I then walked away from him to some chuckles from the group though it didn’t escape my notice that I won the debate but lost the crowd.

That event put me into alienation mode but I still remained a dues paying party member until 2003. I then left the GOP in 2003 over the immoral invasion of Iraq which for me was the straw that broke the camels back. Unfortunately most of the predictions I made about the Iraq war came true.

At that time I began mostly voting Democrat but I have never been a member of the Democratic Party and I’ve still retained my centrist albeit somewhat libertarian views. Though I was and still am a critic of the Libertarian political party.

On the political compus test I score just a smidge to the left of dead center mainly because I reject supply side economics and most socialist policies. On the authoritarian vs libertarian scale I’m smack dab in the middle on the libertarian side of the scale.

Now after this last election I don’t identify with either party due to the major changes in both parties coalitions.

Right now it looks like which party can advance the most stupid policies. The Trump populist or the progressive liberals. So I’m kind of in wait and see mode and, as I stated above I’m finding this historical event to be quite fascinating and I haven’t a clue how it’s going to shake out other than to predict that unless the Centrist liberals kick the progressive wing of the party to the curbside the Democrats will be a minority party for a generation or more.

Well. I am still in the republican party, but I vote Libertarian all the time... I mean, what are my choices? Boebert? Yeah, she moved into my district and got elected. Though she isn't as insane as it looks on TV (and she's TINY, like 4-11 or something thereabouts), I just can't get past her antics at the Beetlejuice play that night... Anyway. I hear you.