The stick vs. the carrot (online discussions here)

[Hawkeye10]

I've heard that unicorns exist in a way, they're just not horses with horns, but rather an amalgamation of 2 animals still alive today- rhinos, which I think is where the idea of unicorns originated and narwhals for the actual shape of the horns. I think the animated film "The Last Unicorn" actually playfully touches on this when it shows some narwhals in the sea.



I suspect that people have called their age a dark one for a long time. I think people are generally great, but I also think that there are hard limits as to what most people will do to make this world a better place. I'm a firm believer that everyone has 2 goals: to increase their happiness and decrease their unhappiness. How they go about this depends on their knowledge base. Increase people's knowledge on how to do these things well and the world will become a better place.

U R SO Naive.

Whatever.

 

[Scott]

I have known Frank Apisa since bout 2006, but sadly he has gone round the bend.

Who is Frank Apisa?

 

[Scott]

U R SO Naive.

I've heard that unicorns exist in a way, they're just not horses with horns, but rather an amalgamation of 2 animals still alive today- rhinos, which I think is where the idea of unicorns originated and narwhals for the actual shape of the horns. I think the animated film "The Last Unicorn" actually playfully touches on this when it shows some narwhals in the sea:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke94S7cX8-Q&ab_channel=The2nd2LastUnicorn

I suspect that people have called their age a dark one for a long time. I think people are generally great, but I also think that there are hard limits as to what most people will do to make this world a better place. I'm a firm believer that everyone has 2 goals: to increase their happiness and decrease their unhappiness. How they go about this depends on their knowledge base. Increase people's knowledge on how to do these things well and the world will become a better place.

U R SO Naive.

Are you sure it's not the other way around, that is, that you are too cynical?

 

[Hawkeye10]

Are you sure it's not the other way around, that is, that you are too cynical?

This is a dark age I have been forced to live in....the people suck....just look at where we are.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Who is Frank Apisa?

Ross Whatever....he changed his name.

 

[Hawkeye10]

GOD owes me an explanation....I did nothing to deserve this shit show.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

I've been doing a bit of browing the forums here in the last day or 2 and the content of my browsing to me thinking, do people really think they're doing a good thing by casting shade on others so much? I know for my part that I disagree strongly with some posters here on various issues, but then, we I can also strongly -agree- with those same posters on other issues. There was a time when I considered my arch nemesis to be Dutch Uncle, based on the insults he was always sending my way, and so he was the first person I ever thread banned. Now that thread banning has been abolished, we rarely cross paths and when we do, it's not always as ideological opponents. Honestly, the person I least like the posts of these days is actually dancing dave, simply because they all seem to make little sense and so I just feel like I waste my time reading them.

I spent a bit of time in the War Zone Forum. Ironically, I've had some short conversations there that were actually quite nice, but then some posters that are -usually- reasonable started saying things that I wouldn't expect from them elsewhere- not against me, but against ther person I was responding to. I've seen this happen elsewhere too. I just don't see the point in insulting other's ideas and beliefs in simplistic ways- you're bound to either shut the conversation or tune you out at best, or for them to respond with the same at worst, resulting in a possible flame war. I suppose a "Can't we all just get along?" line isn't going to cut it, but I still think the following meme says a lot ...
View attachment 48076

Don't get me wrong, I have certainly gotten mad at people offline (though rarely), but one of the things about doing things offline is that you don't always have time to choose your words carefully and editing is not an option. I've personally found that the carrot generally works much better than the stick in getting people to see things differently. As I've said elsewhere, that doesn't mean it works wonders, just better.

Our ideological difference are EXTREME, Scott,
and we viscerally loathe one another's values as being grotesquely perverted.

It's just not an environment for civility.

America is as polarized as a nation can be,
and right now,
it doesn't look like we're going to survive it.

Should we even survive it?

 

[Hawkeye10]

Our ideological difference are EXTREME, Scott,
and we viscerally loathe one another's values as being grotesquely perverted.

It's just not an environment for civility.

America is as polarized as a nation can be,
and right now,
it doesn't look like we're going to survive it.

Should we even survive it?

We The Better People have explained this all to you.

U refuse to learn.

 

[Ross Dolan]

What would come in second ?

Nothing. But the carrot did not deserve second place.

In any case, I think the popularity of leaders who preached trying to be nice to each other over time speaks for itself. People who used the stick a lot may have been feared, but generally not loved.

So? We were discussing making significant change...and more change has come with a stick (carnage, cannons, bombs, arrows, guns, knives, spears) than with "please."

Much more.

You are not talking about change anymore. You are talking about being loved.

Does it really? I'd argue that it doesn't change minds so much as get people to conform. If you've read the book 1984 or seen one of the film versions, I think it's a great example of what people generally do vs. what they dream about doing (and a few actually do).

Scott...you've gotten off the rails here.

You went from what makes for "change the mind here on the Internet" to "will they like me."

 

[Ross Dolan]

Lol . I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you are on this one. I will say this- I believe I have persuaded some people to try to be more civilized when debating others. That's a win for me.

I doubt that you have. More likely you have had people already disposed to doing it...to agree with you.

Let's see you get anyone to change using your methodology here...to actually see it happen.

I think neither of us will.

 

[Scott]

Are you sure it's not the other way around, that is, that you are too cynical?

This is a dark age I have been forced to live in....the people suck....just look at where we are.

I certainly see where we are, and you're right, it certainly is dark in many ways. But also beautiful. As to the dark times bit, this got me to thinking of a bit of dialogue between 2 characters from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings:
**
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
**

 

[Scott]

Who is Frank Apisa?

Ross Whatever....he changed his name.

Ahh ok .

 

[Scott]

GOD owes me an explanation....I did nothing to deserve this shit show.

Being a pantheist, I believe that everything is God, which would mean we're part of God. My short explanation for our predicament is we did it to ourselves. I also think that we'll get out of it ourselves too, but keep in mind that my idea of our selves is pretty nebulous.

 

[Scott]

Our ideological difference are EXTREME, Scott,
and we viscerally loathe one another's values as being grotesquely perverted.

It's just not an environment for civility.

America is as polarized as a nation can be,
and right now,
it doesn't look like we're going to survive it.

Should we even survive it?

To answer your question, I think we can agree that the beauty in America should survive. How much of it will is another question, but I think we can also agree that the answer there should be "as much as possible".

As to the ideological differences, I suspect that most if it is superficial- people become so fixated on vague ideas that they don't realize that beneath their ideological differences are people who all (or at least mostly) have loved ones they care for. I think spending some time trying to focus on what we -agree- on rather than what we disagree on can be useful sometimes.

 

[Scott]

Our ideological difference are EXTREME, Scott,
and we viscerally loathe one another's values as being grotesquely perverted.

It's just not an environment for civility.

America is as polarized as a nation can be,
and right now,
it doesn't look like we're going to survive it.

Should we even survive it?

We The Better People have explained this all to you.

U refuse to learn.

What have you explained Hawkeye?

 

[Scott]

What would come in second ?

Nothing. But the carrot did not deserve second place.

Lol . I still think it comes in first place though.

In any case, I think the popularity of leaders who preached trying to be nice to each other over time speaks for itself. People who used the stick a lot may have been feared, but generally not loved.

So? We were discussing making significant change...and more change has come with a stick (carnage, cannons, bombs, arrows, guns, knives, spears) than with "please."

Much more.

You are not talking about change anymore. You are talking about being loved.

I'm taliking about both. I think that change that is created through fear is temporary. Generally, when we fear things, what we -want- is to -remove- what we fear. Thus, revolutions. The same is not true for things we love.

Yes, I understand that is what you think. But keep in mind that I would bet the opposite way. In fact, I would argue that history shows that "the stick" changes a hell of a lot more minds than "the carrot."

Does it really? I'd argue that it doesn't change minds so much as get people to conform. If you've read the book 1984 or seen one of the film versions, I think it's a great example of what people generally do vs. what they dream about doing (and a few actually do).

Scott...you've gotten off the rails here.

You went from what makes for "change the mind here on the Internet" to "will they like me."

Your line of thought certainly isn't going in the direction I thought it would, but your line alose makes me think of a certain scene in Lord of the Rings:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rb1GzLDSPg&ab_channel=MovieTakedown


Someone once posed the question of what to do when someone likes you -too- much. I responded by saying that one should point out one's own flaws. I could have added that if one isn't so good at that, one can always invite one's ideological opponents to help out . Ultimately, this all comes down to an idea that's in the bible: "Do unto others as you would have done unto you". Generally speaking, we like it when others are nice to us, so trying to be nice to others only makes sense. It also tends to elicit the same response from others as well.

 

[Scott]

I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you are on this one. I will say this- I believe I have persuaded some people to try to be more civilized when debating others. That's a win for me.

I doubt that you have. More likely you have had people already disposed to doing it...to agree with you.

Let's see you get anyone to change using your methodology here...to actually see it happen.

I think neither of us will.

Well, as I said, I believe I've already done it to some extent, though I fully admit that I doubt I'd ever be able to 'prove' it. Can we at least agree that a discussion where no one engages in personal insults is more productive than one that is filled with personal insults?

 

[Ross Dolan]

Lol . I still think it comes in first place though.



I'm taliking about both. I think that change that is created through fear is temporary. Generally, when we fear things, what we -want- is to -remove- what we fear. Thus, revolutions. The same is not true for things we love.



Your line of thought certainly isn't going in the direction I thought it would, but your line alose makes me think of a certain scene in Lord of the Rings:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rb1GzLDSPg&ab_channel=MovieTakedown


Someone once posed the question of what to do when someone likes you -too- much. I responded by saying that one should point out one's own flaws. I could have added that if one isn't so good at that, one can always invite one's ideological opponents to help out . Ultimately, this all comes down to an idea that's in the bible: "Do unto others as you would have done unto you". Generally speaking, we like it when others are nice to us, so trying to be nice to others only makes sense. It also tends to elicit the same response from others as well.

Do what you will. There are posters here who know I can be pleasant and respectful (in return for pleasantness and respectfulness) but to be pleasant and respectful to some of the people here is asinine. but that is you choice. To propose, however, that doing so has some higher designation is way off base, You do it because it meet some need in you...NOT because it is a more effective choice for online discussions.

But...I am willing to be proven wrong. Choose some people you think to be set in their ways...and, using your nice ways, change them.

I say you will get no further than others using something else.

By the way, there are people here with whom I disagree strongly, with whom I have had cordial, reasonable discussions. No way they are dropping their MAGA/extreme conservative ways because of that...and I doubt they think I will drop my far left of center ways because of it either.

 

[Scott]

Do what you will. There are posters here who know I can be pleasant and respectful (in return for pleasantness and respectfulness) but to be pleasant and respectful to some of the people here is asinine.

Actually, you make a good point here. In general, when I'm faced with responses to my posts that are insult laden, I have decided it's best to either not respond at all or to make my response short, sometimes as short as a picture meme.

To propose, however, that doing so has some higher designation is way off base, You do it because it meet some need in you...NOT because it is a more effective choice for online discussions.

Again, I don't see why it can't be both, keeping in mind my caveat on people who do insult above.

But...I am willing to be proven wrong. Choose some people you think to be set in their ways...and, using your nice ways, change them.

That would be the hardest I think- to choose people who insult people they disagree with as a matter of course. As I've already said, I doubt I'd ever be able to prove that being nice tends to elicit the same, and I think it'd be hardest to prove with precisely the types of people you have in mind.

By the way, there are people here with whom I disagree strongly, with whom I have had cordial, reasonable discussions. No way they are dropping their MAGA/extreme conservative ways because of that...and I doubt they think I will drop my far left of center ways because of it either.

Agreed. But isn't it so much nicer to have cordial conversations with people we disagree with than the insult laden kind? I also think that it's much more probable to change the mind of someone who you can have a cordial discussion with than someone with whom that's not possible. Now, "much more" may go from .01% to .1%, but hey, that's still a factor of 10 .

 

[NiftyNiblick]

As to the ideological differences, I suspect that most if it is superficial- people become so fixated on vague ideas that they don't realize that beneath their ideological differences are people who all (or at least mostly) have loved ones they care for. I think spending some time trying to focus on what we -agree- on rather than what we disagree on can be useful sometimes.

Here I must disagree.

The difference between people who voted for Trump and people like myself
who cannot describe in words how much we hate him
is NOT SUPERFICIAL.

It's substantial enough that one could reasonably study if the factions have evolved
into entirely separate subspecies.

I certainly don't accept anyone who ever cast a vote for that troglodyte to be human.

I consider each and every one, without a single exception, to be a malignant cancer on our American population
which needs to be excised. I am certain that the genocide of one side or the other is the only thing that
can make America's population compatible again.

I'd HONESTLY rather see our population reduced to half, regardless of which side wins,
that to continue living in the shit show that is America today.
The dumpster fire that we're in now, with Trump as an insane fascist dictator, is unlivable.