The UnChristian Crusade for Imposing Christian Morality

AnyOldIron

AnyOldIron

Atheist Missionary
Why do Christians campaign on moral issues?

I was watching the Simpsons last night, the episode with the Burlesque house, where Springfield's Christian wing campaign to have this 'den of depravity' closed. And it got me thinking.

Christians, almost to a man, believe in free will, they believe that you must freely accept 'god' and reject the immorality of sinning. But if christians are campaigning to remove the option for sin, they reduce the freedom of will, they are, in effect, attempting to force people into adopting the 'word of god'... This is contrary to their religion, for the individual isn't freely choicing 'god' over 'depravity and sin'.

So really, Christians should be campaigning for more Burlesque houses, more gay people, more porn and prostitution, more of the 'depravity' they currently campaign to end. By doing so, if an individual chooses 'god', they do so having been offered options and thus come to him of their own free will.
 
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Good observation...

The idea of the all knowing God kind of makes a mockery of free will anyway.

Also, the Christian idea that God chooses you, you don't choose God...and yes, my friend, it is there in the Bible!
 
If god picks his people, then it is pointless Christians campaigning on moral issues, simply because if god wants an immoral sinner to change their ways, he will pick them.

Either way, the Christian position of campaigning on moral issues is inconsistent with their beliefs....
 
No. The concept that god's omniscience somehow undercuts freewill remains unproven and illogical.
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And it the fact that it does or does not will always be unproven and illogical.
 
Ahh, but it is.
Religion as a whole is unproven and illogical.
It is a handy thing to hide behind to project racial and other prejudices from behind though.
 
uscitizen said:
Ahh, but it is.
Religion as a whole is unproven and illogical.
It is a handy thing to hide behind to project racial and other prejudices from behind though.
Click to expand...


But that wasn't your buddies point. He was saying god's omniscience somehow is at odds with the concept of free will, on a rational basis. I say he's wrong. God's foreknowledge doesn't take away your choice. He knows what you will choose, but it's still your choice. And to be sure, it's very hard to suprise god.
 
AssHatZombie said:
But that wasn't your buddies point. He was saying god's omniscience somehow is at odds with the concept of free will, on a rational basis. I say he's wrong. God's foreknowledge doesn't take away your choice. He knows what you will choose, but it's still your choice. And to be sure, it's very hard to suprise god.
Click to expand...

If there is a god.... Perhaps "God" is a MWO tool ?
Other than the one and only God on this board of course. I have chatted with him so he exists ;)
 
AHZ you are wrong. Omniscience does curtail free will. The omniscient being knows all possible outcomes of an action and thus also knows every single event that led to that outcome all the way back to the moment of creation. If every possible event was determined from the beginning of the universe you cannot deviate from what will be an unavoidable outcome from this initial event. Thus you are not truly free to choose you only perceive freedom in that choice because you are not omniscient as well.

God may be omniscient and if this is so our lives are but dominoes in a chain reaction set up by the creator from the start.
 
God may be omniscient and if this is so our lives are but dominoes in a chain reaction set up by the creator from the start.

GASP!! you mean god may have designed the NWO :shock:

And with God driving it, there is nothing you can do AHZ....

btw very good post IHG
 
AnyOldIron said:
Why do Christians campaign on moral issues?

I was watching the Simpsons last night, the episode with the Burlesque house, where Springfield's Christian wing campaign to have this 'den of depravity' closed. And it got me thinking.

Christians, almost to a man, believe in free will, they believe that you must freely accept 'god' and reject the immorality of sinning. But if christians are campaigning to remove the option for sin, they reduce the freedom of will, they are, in effect, attempting to force people into adopting the 'word of god'... This is contrary to their religion, for the individual isn't freely choicing 'god' over 'depravity and sin'.

So really, Christians should be campaigning for more Burlesque houses, more gay people, more porn and prostitution, more of the 'depravity' they currently campaign to end. By doing so, if an individual chooses 'god', they do so having been offered options and thus come to him of their own free will.
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I never watch the simpsons, but I also would never have thought the OP Title would lead to such a dead end. I had looked forward to a lively conversation about the hypocracy of the christian faith.
 
He was saying god's omniscience somehow is at odds with the concept of free will, on a rational basis. I say he's wrong.

No, the point was that it is unchristian for christians to campaign on moral grounds because if they succeed and all sin is removed, then a human's 'free will' to choose 'god' and reject 'sin' is removed.

As for the above point, if 'god' knows the destiny of all men, then men have a destiny. The concepts of destiny and free will are mutually exclusive, by definition.

These, however, pale in comparison to the far better argument presented by monists against the notion of free will. This is that if behaviour, and thus human perception, is developed through a mixture of genetic traits (human nature) and social conditioning, then no matter the physical or mechanical capability to pick, how each of those choices are percieved is dictated by sources outside the free control of the individual.

Thus we can be described as exercising will, but to describe that as free is a misnomer.

I would love to see anyone present an argument to counter this whilst remaining in materialist reality.
 
AnyOldIron said:
He was saying god's omniscience somehow is at odds with the concept of free will, on a rational basis. I say he's wrong.

No, the point was that it is unchristian for christians to campaign on moral grounds because if they succeed and all sin is removed, then a human's 'free will' to choose 'god' and reject 'sin' is removed.

As for the above point, if 'god' knows the destiny of all men, then men have a destiny. The concepts of destiny and free will are mutually exclusive, by definition.

These, however, pale in comparison to the far better argument presented by monists against the notion of free will. This is that if behaviour, and thus human perception, is developed through a mixture of genetic traits (human nature) and social conditioning, then no matter the physical or mechanical capability to pick, how each of those choices are percieved is dictated by sources outside the free control of the individual.

Thus we can be described as exercising will, but to describe that as free is a misnomer.

I would love to see anyone present an argument to counter this whilst remaining in materialist reality.
Click to expand...

I don't really think christians believe they can eradicate sin completely, or make sin impossible. Everyone campaigns on moral grounds.
Anyway, laws typically concern after the fact punishments for actions. Even stiff penalties for an action don't render the action impossible to perform.



We choose our destiny. Just like on a bus journey, we choose our destination, though yes, the bus company knows where all the buses will wind up. Get off the macro.

And as far as free will, we can just agree to call that "free to an extent" will. You're such a deritave little mental midget, ya know that?
 
A lively conversation Anyold ?
You forget you are chatting with those in the heart of the country that god runs. the USA is to many the center of Christian faith for the world. Heck Jesus is going to return in to earth at Independence Missouri ;)

Most people here are not comfortable saying bad things about Christianity.
and not because of fear of God but fear fo what Gods minions will do to us.
Plus EVERYONE knows that God is good and liberals are the spawn of the devil.
 
uscitizen said:
A lively conversation Anyold ?
You forget you are chatting with those in the heart of the country that god runs. the USA is to many the center of Christian faith for the world. Heck Jesus is going to return in to earth at Independence Missouri ;)

Most people here are not comfortable saying bad things about Christianity.
and not because of fear of God but fear fo what Gods minions will do to us.
Plus EVERYONE knows that God is good and liberals are the spawn of the devil.
Click to expand...

And then again, some fart and see which way the wind blows to determine their own thoughts on any given day. You are one of those.
 
I don't really think christians believe they can eradicate sin completely, or make sin impossible. Everyone campaign on moral grounds.

But christians shouldn't, according to their ideology. Even if they campaign to close one whorehouse, they are limiting the freedom of choice that people need to freely choose 'god'.


We choose our destiny. Just like on a bus journey, we choose our destination, though yes, the bus company knows where all the buses will wind up. Get off the macro.

Do we? So you don't believe that social conditioning affects a human's perception of their existence? Nor genetic traits? Or do you believe we are autonomous entities, who can choose how we are socially conditioned or genetically derived?

And as far as free will, we can just agree to call that "free to an extent" will.

No, we have will. It isn't free. As mentioned above.

You're such a deritave little mental midget, ya know that?

Maybe I would if deritave were a word?

Sign of a confused mind that you would attack the person with the idea, rather than the idea itself...
 
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