The War in Ukraine
- Thread starter Scott
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Scott
Verified User
I still think it's possible that the U.S. will escalate things to a nuclear war, but I also think it's unlikely at this point, perhaps in large part due to Trump being President of the U.S. now.
Scott
Verified User
Good article from Larry Johnson over at Sonar21 today:
Quoting from its introduction and conclusion:
**
George Kennan must be rolling over in his grave in light of the 19 May article in Foreign Policy journal, written by Michael Klimmage, director of the Kennan Institute at the Wilson Center in Washington. Here is a classic example of an academic who learned to speak Russian, but does not understand a damn thing about Russia. Klimmage is caught in a Cold War time warp, and insists that Putin is a diehard commie intent on world revolution.
[snip]
Klimmage is a symptom of a disease that infects the Washington foreign policy establishment. They are slaves to an official narrative that is totally divorced from the reality on the ground in Ukraine. It is ironic that during this week, when Klimmage’s piece was published, Mark Rutte, the Secretary General of NATO announced that Russia is producing in three months the amount of ammunition that the entire NATO alliance produces in a year, describing this gap as “unacceptable” and “unsustainable.”
Klimmage and the foreign policy establishment are still in the first stage of grief… i.e., denial. Russian operations in May, June and July will dispel any notion that this war is a stalemate or that Russia is losing.
**
Quoting from its introduction and conclusion:
**
So Much for Western Expertise on Russia
23 May 2025George Kennan must be rolling over in his grave in light of the 19 May article in Foreign Policy journal, written by Michael Klimmage, director of the Kennan Institute at the Wilson Center in Washington. Here is a classic example of an academic who learned to speak Russian, but does not understand a damn thing about Russia. Klimmage is caught in a Cold War time warp, and insists that Putin is a diehard commie intent on world revolution.
[snip]
Klimmage is a symptom of a disease that infects the Washington foreign policy establishment. They are slaves to an official narrative that is totally divorced from the reality on the ground in Ukraine. It is ironic that during this week, when Klimmage’s piece was published, Mark Rutte, the Secretary General of NATO announced that Russia is producing in three months the amount of ammunition that the entire NATO alliance produces in a year, describing this gap as “unacceptable” and “unsustainable.”
Klimmage and the foreign policy establishment are still in the first stage of grief… i.e., denial. Russian operations in May, June and July will dispel any notion that this war is a stalemate or that Russia is losing.
**
Nuclear war would likely happen by a mistake, I think that the Russians think that this is less likely now that the US is talking and to some extent listening, which is because of Trump, so they are willing to play along with the Trump charade that America did not demand and then lose this war.
Besides, the calendar is on Russia/China/Iran/North Koreas side....every day they get stronger...every day we get weaker.
The mental illness, the insanity, of the losers of this war (Europe) demanding the capitulation of the winners (Russia)....which could very well go to a bad place. The mental illness, the insanity, of Europeans who are facing economic and social collapse spending hundreds of billions of Euros they dont have to militarize to face the imaginary threat of Russia, because NATO needs an enemy if it is to be, and they cant imagine a world without NATO.....they fear that no NATO would mean no Europe....it would fall apart.
Which it is doing anyways.
And I spent 30 years believing in project Europe....boy I sure that one wrong.
Scott
Verified User
I still hold some hope that Ukraine will come to its senses and make a deal with Russia before Russia takes or at least demands Odessa as well. But I fully admit that Ukraine may not be ready to make a deal until one of those things happens.
Putin wants to rebuild the USSR and control more of the world than he already does.
Scott
Verified User
This canard has been making the rounds for quite some time now. I suspect it's more projection than anything else, as the U.S. has certainly wanted to control more of the world than it already does for some time now. Fortunately, there are well known people who have done a good job in dispelling this false narrative, amoung them American Professor and Statesman Jeffrey Sachs. He did an excellent speech to European Parliament earlier this year. It's been turned into an article which adds a bit of information for context here:
Jeffrey Sachs: The Geopolitics of Peace
The author explains manipulative U.S. post-war foreign policy to European MPs, explodes myths about Ukraine and urges an independent European foreign policy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcMoDFU1xg&ab_channel=MichaelvonderSchulenburg This is an edited transcript of Professor Jeffrey Sachs’
consortiumnews.com
In part of it, Mr Sachs gets into how back in 2010, Russia had no territorial ambitions in Ukraine other than negotiating a 25 year lease in Sevastopol. The U.S., on the other hand, has been known for its regime change operation for quite some time. Quoting:
**
As you know, Viktor Yanukovych was elected as president of Ukraine in 2010 on the platform of Ukraine’s neutrality. Russia had no territorial interests or designs in Ukraine at all. I know. I was there off-and-on during these years. What Russia was negotiating during 2010 was a 25-year lease to 2042 for Sevastopol naval base. That’s it. There were no Russian demands for Crimea, or for the Donbas. Nothing like that at all. The idea that Putin is reconstructing the Russian empire is childish propaganda. Excuse me.
If anyone knows the day-to-day and year-to-year history, this is childish stuff. Yet childish stuff seems to work better than adult stuff. So, there were no territorial demands at all before the 2014 coup [in Ukraine]. Yet the United States decided that Yanukovych must be overthrown because he favored neutrality and opposed NATO enlargement. It’s called a regime change operation.
There have been around one hundred regime-change operations by the U.S. since 1947, many in your countries [speaking to the MEPs] and many all over the world.
(Political scientist Lindsey O’Rourke documented 64 U.S. covert regime-change operations between 1947 and 1989, and concluded that “Regime change operations, especially those conducted covertly, have oft en led to prolonged instability, civil wars, and humanitarian crises in the affected regions.” See O’Rourke’s 2018 book, Covert Regime Change: America’s Secret Cold War. After 1989, there is ample evidence of the C.I.A. involved in Syria, Libya, Ukraine, Venezuela, and many other countries.)
That’s what the C.I.A. does for a living. Please know it. It’s a very unusual kind of foreign policy. In the American government, if you don’t like the other side, you don’t negotiate with them, you try to overthrow them, preferably, covertly. If it doesn’t work covertly, you do it overtly. You always say it’s not our fault. They’re the aggressor. They’re the other side.
They’re “Hitler.” That comes up every two or three years. Whether it’s Saddam Hussein, whether it’s [deposed Syrian President Bashar] al-Assad, whether it’s Putin, that’s very convenient. That’s the only foreign policy explanation the American people are ever given. Well, we’re facing Munich 1938. We can’t talk to the other side. They’re evil and implacable foes. That’s the only model of foreign policy we ever hear from our government and mass media. The mass media repeats it entirely because it’s completely suborned by the U.S. government.
**
Mr. Sachs then gets into what happened during Ukraine's Euromaidan event in 2014:
**
Now in 2014, the U.S. worked actively to overthrow Yanukovych [who was the elected President of Ukraine at the time]. Everybody knows the phone call intercepted by my Columbia University colleague, Victoria Nuland, and the U.S. ambassador, Geoffrey Pyatt. You don’t get better evidence. The Russians intercepted her call, and they put it on the Internet.
It’s fascinating. By doing that, they all got promoted in the Biden administration. That’s the job. When the Maidan occurred, I was called soon after. “Professor Sachs, the new Ukrainian prime minister would like to see you to talk about the economic crisis.” So, I flew to Kyiv, and I was walked around the Maidan. And I was told how the U.S. paid the money for all the people around the Maidan, the “spontaneous” Revolution of Dignity.
Ladies and gentlemen, please, how did all those Ukrainian media outlets suddenly appear at the time of the Maidan? Where did all this organization come from? Where did all these buses come from? Where did all those people come from? Are you kidding? This is an organized effort. And it’s not a secret, except perhaps to citizens of Europe and the United States. Everyone else understands it quite clearly.
**
It was only -after- the Euromaidan coup that Crimeans decided to hold a referendum on whether they should rejoin Russia, which they had been for a lot longer then they had been Ukrainian, the vast majority said yes and Russia accepted their request. A good article was written by Canadian American journalist Eva Bartlett, who is the only western journalist I know who actually went to Crimea after it had once again become a part of Russia. It can be seen here:
Return to Russia: Crimeans Tell the Real Story of the 2014 Referendum and Their Lives Since
Eva Bartlett traveled to Crimea to see how people have fared since their country reunited with Russia and what the referendum was really like
www.mintpressnews.com
moon
Satire for Sanity
This is interesting. Reasons to favor Putin ;
On a Facebook thread, one person asked if it were true that Putin kills his adversaries. This was the response:
"Once you realize the CIA supported the Indonesian invasion of East Timor leading to the slaughter of a quarter of a million Timorese, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize the CIA has interfered and/or rigged hundreds of democratic elections around the world, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you admit the CIA has overthrown and/or assassinated dozens of democratically elected officials, Putin ain't such a bad guy.
Once you realize the CIA has destabilized Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa resulting in the death of millions at the behest of transnational corporations, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know the CIA ran a secret program funded in part by the Rockefeller and Ford foundations, to experiment with LSD on US citizens without their knowledge as well as research which included propaganda, brainwashing, public relations, advertising, hypnosis, and other forms of suggestion, all on their own people without their knowledge, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know the CIA overthrew Mossadegh in a coup in Iran in 1953, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know the CIA overthrew Arbenz in a coup in Guatemala in 1954, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you realize the CIA abetted in the attempted assassination of Charles de Gaulle and Nasser, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you acknowledge the CIA in 1961 assassinated its own creation, the murderous Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo because his business interests threatened US corporate interests and only after thousands had been killed, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you understand the CIA in 1963 overthrew the democratically elected government of Juan Bosch again in the Dominican Republic because he favored modest land reform measures, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know that the CIA used biological warfare in Cuba, forcing the hog population to be slaughtered twice and causing hardship and starvation, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
On a Facebook thread, one person asked if it were true that Putin kills his adversaries. This was the response:
"Once you realize the CIA supported the Indonesian invasion of East Timor leading to the slaughter of a quarter of a million Timorese, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize the CIA has interfered and/or rigged hundreds of democratic elections around the world, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you admit the CIA has overthrown and/or assassinated dozens of democratically elected officials, Putin ain't such a bad guy.
Once you realize the CIA has destabilized Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa resulting in the death of millions at the behest of transnational corporations, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know the CIA ran a secret program funded in part by the Rockefeller and Ford foundations, to experiment with LSD on US citizens without their knowledge as well as research which included propaganda, brainwashing, public relations, advertising, hypnosis, and other forms of suggestion, all on their own people without their knowledge, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know the CIA overthrew Mossadegh in a coup in Iran in 1953, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know the CIA overthrew Arbenz in a coup in Guatemala in 1954, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you realize the CIA abetted in the attempted assassination of Charles de Gaulle and Nasser, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you acknowledge the CIA in 1961 assassinated its own creation, the murderous Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo because his business interests threatened US corporate interests and only after thousands had been killed, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you understand the CIA in 1963 overthrew the democratically elected government of Juan Bosch again in the Dominican Republic because he favored modest land reform measures, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know that the CIA used biological warfare in Cuba, forcing the hog population to be slaughtered twice and causing hardship and starvation, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
moon
Satire for Sanity
Once you realize that the CIA made dozens of attempts on Fidel Castro’s life and murdered dozens of Cuban officials, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know that the US abetted the bombing of a Cuban airliner in 1973 killing all 73 aboard and protected the perpetrators in Miami, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize that the CIA was behind the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you understand the CIA ran dozens of front organizations used to spy on Americans in illegal violation of their charter, Putin ain’t so bad.
One you know The CIA’s man in Uruguay in 1969, Dan Mitrione, ran a torture campaign against the civilian population much like the Phoenix program in Southeast Asia and elsewhere, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you remember the CIA backed the coup on Chile that led to the death of that country’s president, Salvador Allende, Commander of the Army, Rene Schneider and poet Pablo Neruda and the murder and imprisonment of thousands of Chileans, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know the CIA’s Phoenix Program resulted in the murder of tens of thousands of innocent people including local mayors, intellectuals, school teachers, doctors, farmers etc. as well as Viet Minh patriots, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize the CIA ran the heroin that US troops got hooked on in Vietnam and the streets of major American cities, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you realize the CIA ran a heroin processing operation out of an abandoned Pepsi Cola bottling plant in Vientiane, Laos, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know, thanks to Seymour Hersh, the CIA ran Operation CHAOS, a domestic surveillance and infiltration of anti-war and civil rights groups in the U.S., Putin ain't so bad.
Once you know the CIA’s people broke into the Watergate to tap the Democratic Party headquarters on behalf of the Republican candidate, Richard Nixon, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you’re aware the CIA’s wrote a Freedom Fighter’s Manual which was disbursed to the Contras and included instructions on economic sabotage, propaganda, extortion, bribery, blackmail, interrogation, torture, murder and political assassination, Putin ain't so bad.
Once you understand the CIA ran a guns down, cocaine up operation during the period of Iran-contra and to the present, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you realize that the CIA is responsible for Islamic fundamentalism having supported the Mujahadeen against the Soviet Union which led to the assassination of the liberal ruler Najibullah, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know that the US abetted the bombing of a Cuban airliner in 1973 killing all 73 aboard and protected the perpetrators in Miami, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize that the CIA was behind the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you understand the CIA ran dozens of front organizations used to spy on Americans in illegal violation of their charter, Putin ain’t so bad.
One you know The CIA’s man in Uruguay in 1969, Dan Mitrione, ran a torture campaign against the civilian population much like the Phoenix program in Southeast Asia and elsewhere, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you remember the CIA backed the coup on Chile that led to the death of that country’s president, Salvador Allende, Commander of the Army, Rene Schneider and poet Pablo Neruda and the murder and imprisonment of thousands of Chileans, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know the CIA’s Phoenix Program resulted in the murder of tens of thousands of innocent people including local mayors, intellectuals, school teachers, doctors, farmers etc. as well as Viet Minh patriots, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize the CIA ran the heroin that US troops got hooked on in Vietnam and the streets of major American cities, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you realize the CIA ran a heroin processing operation out of an abandoned Pepsi Cola bottling plant in Vientiane, Laos, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know, thanks to Seymour Hersh, the CIA ran Operation CHAOS, a domestic surveillance and infiltration of anti-war and civil rights groups in the U.S., Putin ain't so bad.
Once you know the CIA’s people broke into the Watergate to tap the Democratic Party headquarters on behalf of the Republican candidate, Richard Nixon, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you’re aware the CIA’s wrote a Freedom Fighter’s Manual which was disbursed to the Contras and included instructions on economic sabotage, propaganda, extortion, bribery, blackmail, interrogation, torture, murder and political assassination, Putin ain't so bad.
Once you understand the CIA ran a guns down, cocaine up operation during the period of Iran-contra and to the present, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you realize that the CIA is responsible for Islamic fundamentalism having supported the Mujahadeen against the Soviet Union which led to the assassination of the liberal ruler Najibullah, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
moon
Satire for Sanity
Once you recall the CIA blew Orlando Letelier and Toby Moffitt to pieces on a traffic circle in the heart of Washington DC, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you know that in 1963 the CIA murdered its own proxy, Diem, in Vietnam, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize Uncle Slimey’s CIA has a long and unbroken record of working with fascists, dictators, druglords and state sponsors of terrorism in every region of the world in its elusive but relentless quest for unchallenged global power, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know that the CIA worked closely with that homicidal pus bag, Henry Kissinger, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know the CIA attempted coups in China from 1949 to early 1960s, Albania 1949-53, East Germany 1950s, Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Costa Rica mid-1950s, Syria 1956-7, Egypt 1957, Indonesia 1957-8, British Guiana 1953-64, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize the CIA staged coups in Iraq 1963, North Vietnam 1945-73, Cambodia 1955-70, Laos 1958, 1959 , 1960, Ecuador 1960-63, Congo 1960, France 1965, Brazil 1962-64, Dominican Republic 1963, Cuba 1959 to the present, Bolivia 1964, Indonesia 1965, Ghana 1966, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you accept the CIA staged coups in Chile 1964-73, Greece 1967, Costa Rica 1970-71, Bolivia 1971, Australia 1973-75, Angola 1975, 1980s, Zaire 1975, Portugal 1974-76, Jamaica 1976-80, Seychelles 1979-81, Chad 1981-82, Grenada 1983, South Yemen 1982-84, Suriname 1982-84, Fiji 1987, Libya 1980s, Nicaragua 1981-90, Panama 1989, Bulgaria 1990, Albania 1991, Iraq 1991, Afghanistan 1980s, Somalia 1993, Yugoslavia 1999-2000, Ecuador 2000, Afghanistan 2001, Venezuela 2002, Iraq 2003, Haiti 2004, Somalia 2007 to present, Honduras 2009, Libya 2011, Syria 2012 and Ukraine 2014, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you understand the above represents only the tiniest fraction of CIA murders and lies, Putin ain’t such a bad guy."
Once you know that in 1963 the CIA murdered its own proxy, Diem, in Vietnam, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize Uncle Slimey’s CIA has a long and unbroken record of working with fascists, dictators, druglords and state sponsors of terrorism in every region of the world in its elusive but relentless quest for unchallenged global power, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know that the CIA worked closely with that homicidal pus bag, Henry Kissinger, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you know the CIA attempted coups in China from 1949 to early 1960s, Albania 1949-53, East Germany 1950s, Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Costa Rica mid-1950s, Syria 1956-7, Egypt 1957, Indonesia 1957-8, British Guiana 1953-64, Putin ain’t so bad.
Once you realize the CIA staged coups in Iraq 1963, North Vietnam 1945-73, Cambodia 1955-70, Laos 1958, 1959 , 1960, Ecuador 1960-63, Congo 1960, France 1965, Brazil 1962-64, Dominican Republic 1963, Cuba 1959 to the present, Bolivia 1964, Indonesia 1965, Ghana 1966, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you accept the CIA staged coups in Chile 1964-73, Greece 1967, Costa Rica 1970-71, Bolivia 1971, Australia 1973-75, Angola 1975, 1980s, Zaire 1975, Portugal 1974-76, Jamaica 1976-80, Seychelles 1979-81, Chad 1981-82, Grenada 1983, South Yemen 1982-84, Suriname 1982-84, Fiji 1987, Libya 1980s, Nicaragua 1981-90, Panama 1989, Bulgaria 1990, Albania 1991, Iraq 1991, Afghanistan 1980s, Somalia 1993, Yugoslavia 1999-2000, Ecuador 2000, Afghanistan 2001, Venezuela 2002, Iraq 2003, Haiti 2004, Somalia 2007 to present, Honduras 2009, Libya 2011, Syria 2012 and Ukraine 2014, Putin ain’t such a bad guy.
Once you understand the above represents only the tiniest fraction of CIA murders and lies, Putin ain’t such a bad guy."
moon
Satire for Sanity
Does anybody actually doubt that Biden et al decided to break the budding relationship between Russia and the EU by destroying the Nord Stream program and forcing the Russians to react against NATO's Ukrainian encroachment- ignited by the US-led coup of 2014 which ousted the elected pro-Russian Ukrainian president and resulted in the Ukrainian civil war ?
That episode of US shenanigans has cost billions of dollars , left Europe in fuel poverty, probably killed over a million people and destroyed all the environmental gains made by the zero emmissions scheme over past decades.
Biden was an asshole. Putin has been defending his country against Western assholes. The notion of a Russian ' expansionist ' plan is simply Western propaganda for home consumption and wallet-squeezing.
That episode of US shenanigans has cost billions of dollars , left Europe in fuel poverty, probably killed over a million people and destroyed all the environmental gains made by the zero emmissions scheme over past decades.
Biden was an asshole. Putin has been defending his country against Western assholes. The notion of a Russian ' expansionist ' plan is simply Western propaganda for home consumption and wallet-squeezing.
The brainwashings worked on you.....He wants to make Russia Great Again and to has a large degree done it, now he wants to end Western aggression against it and then organize a transition so that he can get off the stage.
The Russians have no interest in the wasteland that is Europe, not even as trading partners much less as conquered lands....that would be far more trouble than it is worth....Europe has nothing to offer.
Geebus, and you say others have fallen for "brainwashing"?. When Russia invaded Ukraine it was not "western aggression", not even when he invaded the Crimea past Obama's "line in the sand"... where he told Putin "there would be costs"... but then never made him pay any costs, nor when he supposedly took the Donbas region as what most see as a "buffer", not when he bombed Kiev (Russian spelling, not the new supposedly "Ukrainian" spelling) or any other place inside Ukraine. All of the aggression has been Russian aggression and was meant to expand their territory. Putin isn't a "hero", didn't stop imaginary "fascism" and if he had done nothing no western nation would have ever invaded Russia.
You are either lying or else you have no idea what is going on....and either way....
Which western nation was poised to invade Russia? We'll wait. Which time in any modern era did any Western nation aggressively invade Russia?
This is all imagination and really obvious propaganda, some of which you must have fallen for... you keep repeating his craptacularly absurd claims.