There is no objective concept of "beauty"

Cypress said:
It's a true statement that people by virtue of being human, value beauty and aesthetics
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But what does that mean? If no one can say what is beautiful then that becomes a meaningless tautology: it means people like what they like.

Nothing more.

So how does it become a "universal" truth?
 
Cupressus said:
But what does that mean? If no one can say what is beautiful then that becomes a meaningless tautology: it means people like what they like.

Nothing more.

So how does it become a "universal" truth?
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Nobody chooses to go on a vacation of the abandoned factories of Toledo Ohio.

On the flip side, I don't think a rat cares if it lives in an abandoned Toledo factory, or in the Louvre in Paris


For me it comes to this: we can acquire objectively true knowledge about human ethics and human values, the same way we can acquire knowledge about science, history, and economics.
 
Yes, everything you can imagine today is objectionable!

Because I also believe everything today is political, and politics may even be affecting what we ourselves believe is Beautiful!

For an example, the Republicans are going to see Donald Trump humping the American flag as something beautiful, but the Democrats think that that is something ugly and hard to watch!

For example No. 2, most Republican men think that Marjorie Trailer Green is beautiful, and Democratic men find her to be ugly and repulsive!

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Cypress said:
Nobody chooses to go on a vacation of the abandoned factories of Toledo Ohio.
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I think you're wrong. I think you can google "Urban Spelunking" and find a lot of folks who would do exactly that.

But, again, that's an argument from popularity.

I don't think a rat cares if it lives in an abandoned Toledo factory, of in the Louvre in Paris
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I'm willing to keep this discussion centered on "humans".

For me it comes to this: we can acquire objectively true knowledge about human ethics and human values, the same way we can acquire knowledge about science, history, and economics.
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By measurement? If so I agree. It will likely come out to be a DISTRIBUTION of responses, meaning it will not wind up showing a "universal truth" but rather a spectrum of responses.
 
Geeko Sportivo said:
Yes, everything you can imagine today is objectionable!

Because I also believe everything today is political, and politics may even be affecting what we ourselves believe is Beautiful!

For an example, the Republicans are going to see Donald Trump humping the American flag as something beautiful, but the Democrats think that that is something ugly and hard to watch!

For example No. 2, most Republican men think that Marjorie Trailer Green is beautiful, and Democratic men find her to be ugly and repulsive!
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People can be brainwashed into thinking something is beautiful and honest. Megachurches are proof of that!!!!¡
 
Cypress said:
Nobody chooses to go on a vacation of the abandoned factories of Toledo Ohio.

On the flip side, I don't think a rat cares if it lives in an abandoned Toledo factory, or in the Louvre in Paris


For me it comes to this: we can acquire objectively true knowledge about human ethics and human values, the same way we can acquire knowledge about science, history, and economics.
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Wait, you just said "objective" means true. Now you say objective and true are different concepts.
 
Cupressus said:
I think you're wrong. I think you can google "Urban Spelunking" and find a lot of folks who would do exactly that.

But, again, that's an argument from popularity.



I'm willing to keep this discussion centered on "humans".



By measurement? If so I agree. It will likely come out to be a DISTRIBUTION of responses, meaning it will not wind up showing a "universal truth" but rather a spectrum of responses.
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You mean like bell curve?
 
Confucius once said: 'Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it.

Which may be true, because even a pile of Dog Shit has beauty to a fly!
 
Cupressus said:
Yes there is something quite common to the belief, but as noted in the NPR story I linked to (HERE) a lot of what is "generally agreed to be beautiful" may be nothing more than a socially-driven popularity contest.

Even if that isn't the case, the fact that even ONE person might find a sunset to not be beautiful (not that they find it ugly, just not beautiful) would make it a non-universal concept.

When I look at most sunsets I don't see beauty...I see a sunset.

When some people see the land that I grew up in they are in awe and find it beautiful...I found it boring and dull so I left to go somewhere that I found beautiful.

It's all subjective, even if there is a degree of popularity.
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I disagree

Ive never understood what the value is of minimizing things based on the opinion of a minority.

I suspect you won't care but if it's true you see just a sunset then I feel sorry for you.

Well id say a desert has it's beauty but it's not as beautiful as Switzerland
 
Geeko Sportivo said:
Confucius once said: 'Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it.

Which may be true, because even a pile of Dog Shit has beauty to a fly!
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This is true, but a tautology. Everyone likes what they like. That is true of everyone. But also a meaningless statement. A thing is what it is which gives no useful information about the thing.
 
Yakuda said:
I disagree

Ive never understood what the value is of minimizing things based on the opinion of a minority.
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Aaaah but we are talking about "universals", which, by definition MUST take into account the opinion of the minority.

I will readily agree a LOT of people like sunsets. That doesn't change the fact, though, that not all necessarily do. Which means it is not universal to all people.

I suspect you won't care but if it's true you see just a sunset then I feel sorry for you.
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Why do you feel sorry for me? I bet there are some things I find beautiful that you couldn't care less about. Here's an example:

Well id say a desert has it's beauty but it's not as beautiful as Switzerland
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Says you. But obviously there are people whose opinions differ. Which is the whole point.
 
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