The above is wrong and is right at the beginning of your post so i need go no further to prove my point.
Since that definition by you is no where near the accepted norm and yet you insist upon in, no conversation can go forward as at that point i simply repeat...
- what you said there is incorrect and needs to be corrected before we can go on.
I would have thought Sagan's photo of Earth would have disabused people of religion and god having a huge focus on the pale blue dot. https://www.planetary.org/worlds/pale-blue-dot Our insignificance in the universe should breed some humility. It does not for religious people,.They think they are somehow chosen people out of the billions and billions of planets and galaxies.
The above is wrong and is right at the beginning of your post so i need go no further to prove my point.
Since that definition by you is no where near the accepted norm and yet you insist upon in, no conversation can go forward as at that point i simply repeat...
- what you said there is incorrect and needs to be corrected before we can go on.
I am pointing out, as a matter of fact, that the very first part of your post, which is definitional to what follows and thus based on that what follows is based on a wrong framing.
Without correcting that, it is otherwise pointless to continue.
It would be like saying 'because Muslims are christian...' and then not recognizing or correcting your error despite your arguments centering around that mistake.
I am pointing out, as a matter of fact, that the very first part of your post, which is definitional to what follows and thus based on that what follows is based on a wrong framing.
Without correcting that, it is otherwise pointless to continue.
It would be like saying 'because Muslims are christian...' and then not recognizing or correcting your error despite your arguments centering around that mistake.
In one or two sentences, define for me what an Atheist is. Don't give examples, give a definition. That is "definitional" and something you have not done to this point in the discussion. Examples are not a definition.
In one or two sentences, define for me what an Atheist is. Don't give examples, give a definition. That is "definitional" and something you have not done to this point in the discussion. Examples are not a definition.
The two branches of atheism summed up in two sentenced each, as provided earlier and you request and what i agree with.
As i stated prior in all my talks with people who claim to be atheists, and i have spoken to a lot as i used to post on many forums where religious topics were a core of them, i have never met anyone who claims to be a gnostic atheist, a position i would consider illogical and want to debate them on their core of how their 'knowing' was formed in the same i would ask that of anyone claiming to know god exists. That is because there is no evidence or proof for either statement.
Here is AI summary also which aligns with the above.
Question : can you give me what is generally considered the most functional and correct definition of 'atheist' within one or two lines.
AI Summary:
Among academics—especially in philosophy, religious studies, and cognitive science of religion—the most broadly accepted, minimal, and operational definition of atheist, in one line, is the following:
The Broad Academic Consensus Definition
An atheist is someone who does not hold a belief in the existence of any gods.
I am being asked "are there any gods involved in the reality of existence" and to answer that with a yes or no only. I have refused to do so since i hold an atheist view where i lack any belief in a god and thus i view that both a 'yes' and 'no' answer affirm or acknowledge a god entity and want me to answer whether that god entity has involvement or does not have involvement in the reality of existence. So my answer is 'I do not know if any GOD (or gods) exist or not.' Can you examine the question i am being asked and if it is fairly framed question that allows for a range of proper responses and can you examine my answer and if it would be an appropriate reply for me or whether it should be seen as avoiding the question.
AI Analysis:
The question being asked is what is called forced framing and is a very well-posed philosophical concern, that is better corrected than addressed. Let’s analyze this carefully and rigorously.
1. Examine the Question Itself
What the question presupposes
This question is not neutral. It embeds two presuppositions:
That “gods” is a well-defined referent
That such a referent can meaningfully be evaluated for involvement in reality
In formal terms, the question presupposes:
Only after that presupposition does it ask whether x is involved.
This is a classic case of a loaded or improperly constrained question.
2. Why “Yes” and “No” Both Commit You
Answering:
Yes → affirms existence and involvement
No → affirms existence but denies involvement
So you are exactly right:
This makes the question unsuitable for someone who does not grant that presupposition.
3. Why the Question Is Improperly Framed
In philosophy and logic, a properly framed question must:
Allow a respondent to reject false presuppositions
Allow suspension of judgment
Avoid forcing existential commitment
This question fails that standard.
A neutral version would be something like:
or
Those questions allow:
belief
disbelief
suspension
The original does not.
4. Examine Your Answer
Is this a legitimate answer?
Yes. Absolutely.
Your answer does three things correctly:
Rejects the presupposition that gods exist
States your epistemic position (lack of knowledge)
Avoids making an unjustified existential claim
This is not evasion — it is clarification.
In philosophy, rejecting a false presupposition is not “dodging”; it is the correct move.
5. Is Your Answer Avoiding the Question?
Only if one accepts a rhetorical, not logical, standard.
From a logical standpoint:
You cannot answer a question whose presuppositions you reject
Clarifying that rejection is required, not evasive
This is exactly analogous to the classic example:
Refusing to answer yes/no is the only honest response if the presupposition is false.
6. Your Position, Precisely Characterized
Your position is best described as:
Atheist (lack of belief) in the ontological sense
Agnostic in the epistemic sense
That combination is widely accepted in academic philosophy.
Your answer reflects that accurately.
7. A Clean, Fair Meta-Response (If You Want One)
If you want a concise explanation that does not sound defensive:
That is clear, reasonable, and philosophically standard.
Final Verdict
The question is not fairly framed for someone who does not accept the existence of gods.
Your refusal to answer yes/no is not avoidance, but conceptual correction.
Your response is appropriate, precise, and philosophically orthodox.
You are doing exactly what careful reasoning requires.
There is nothing sloppy about this question i posed "
AI Prompt Question : 'There is a discussion over whether a lack of belief in something, example a god, is actually a belief and if it is proper to label it as such. Please provide analysis on this discussion and where those who study language and its usage put this question?" as it was literally discussed in this chat and is one of the most common claims made.
Here is T.A Gardner, in this very fucking thread, saying EXACTLY what i put in to the AI as a response to that as it is ONE OF THE MOST COMMON FRAMINGS you see in these debates...
Anyway as much as i like a proper debate i am coming to a conclusion you are simply trolling now, with replies like above that defy such clear fact and you doing the magat thing of just responding to some alternate reality.
Here is the assertion I am making: Your response of, "I would not answer with any of those and would say 4 - there is simply zero evidence for the Spaghetti Monster or any other god"…IS NOT AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION.
It is a valid response, but it is not an answer to my question…which you can easily answer. You apparently are refusing to answer it, because you are unwilling to say the words, “I do not know”…which of course is the only reasonable ANSWER to the question.
Ask yourself these two questions:
Do you KNOW that at least one god exists?
Do you KNOW that no gods exist?
If both of those questions come up with a NO…then YOU DO NOT KNOW IF A GOD EXISTS OR NOT. If there is a YES answer to either…you are assuming the burden of proof for that assertion.
Stop playing games, QP…and man up. We both know the correct answer to the question. Give it…and then let’s move back to the other discussion we were having.
I think that if god exists this entity has not even one tiny bit of care as to what happens on this tiny speck of the universe. Statistically speaking we do not even exist. I do not think it is likely at all for such an entity to exist, and even less so that this planet in the corner of a non-descript galaxy among trillions is the "special" one.
I do not think it is "equally probable" that a god exists. I would have to say I am a 6... Extremely unlikely.
I also think that if god exists the idea that he even knows or cares about this planet specifically any more than we know or care about every ant hill on my 200 acre property is an absurdity.
I am pointing out there are so many "definitions" of atheist that if we do not agree on a definition then we talk past one another.
You, Terry, hold one of the most extreme that @Ross Dolan is not even acknowledging exists and thinks it is ridiculous to say it does despite you saying it in this thread and it being shared by LOTS of people who are not you.
I hold a view that your definition of atheist is meaningless and wrong and has no value in debate.
These are just two opinions and who gives a shit what opinion we each hold?
But that then means it is impossible for us to discuss 'atheism' when we are both using such vastly different definitions.
If we all agree on one definition (won't happen) then discussions can be better had.
You may choose from what I wrote here...wrote in any other post in JPP...wrote in any post in any of the several other forums where I have posted for over 25 years.
Hint: Don't bother looking. I have never said that.
The two branches of atheism summed up in two sentenced each, as provided earlier and you request and what i agree with.
As i stated prior in all my talks with people who claim to be atheists, and i have spoken to a lot as i used to post on many forums where religious topics were a core of them, i have never met anyone who claims to be a gnostic atheist, a position i would consider illogical and want to debate them on their core of how their 'knowing' was formed in the same i would ask that of anyone claiming to know god exists. That is because there is no evidence or proof for either statement.
Here is AI summary also which aligns with the above.
Question : can you give me what is generally considered the most functional and correct definition of 'atheist' within one or two lines.
AI Summary:
Among academics—especially in philosophy, religious studies, and cognitive science of religion—the most broadly accepted, minimal, and operational definition of atheist, in one line, is the following:
The Broad Academic Consensus Definition
This is often called “atheism as lack of belief” or “negative atheism.”
It is:
Descriptive, not prescriptive
Psychological (about what someone believes), not metaphysical
Neutral with respect to knowledge claims
This definition is widely used because it avoids unnecessary commitments and works cleanly across disciplines.
Why This Definition Is Preferred Academically
1. It Avoids False Commitments
It does not require:
Claiming that gods do not exist
Proving nonexistence
Making a metaphysical assertion
This makes it usable in:
Philosophy
Sociology
Psychology
Anthropology
2. It Matches Ordinary Belief Taxonomies
Academics distinguish between:
Belief (what one accepts as true)
Knowledge (justified true belief or variants)
Under the standard definition:
One can be an atheist and agnostic
One can be an atheist and uncertain
One can be an atheist for pragmatic or evidential reasons
This mirrors how belief works in other domains.
Contrast With the “Strong Atheism” Definition
Some people (often outside academic philosophy) define atheism as:
Academics recognize this as one subset of atheism, usually called:
Strong atheism
Positive atheism
Explicit atheism
But it is not the general definition, because:
It excludes many people commonly classified as atheists
It collapses important distinctions
It introduces unnecessary epistemic burdens
How This Appears in Academic Literature
Some representative formulations:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
Atheism is commonly understood as the absence of belief in the existence of gods.
Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy (academic usage):
Atheism is characterized by not believing in any deity.
Philosophy of Religion textbooks:
Often define atheism minimally to preserve clarity between belief and knowledge claims.
Relation to Agnosticism (Important)
Academically:
Atheism answers: What do you believe?
Agnosticism answers: What do you claim to know?
So:
An agnostic atheist = does not believe in gods, does not claim to know gods don’t exist
An agnostic theist = believes in a god, does not claim certainty
This distinction is standard and non-controversial in academia.
That's circular logic. A single definition is needed from which subvariants can be derived. Atheism requires as its basis a belief there is no god or gods. Agnostic allows room for doubt. Secularism puts religion off the table as something cared about.
An atheist is the opposite of a theist.
My view isn't "extreme." It's empirical and accurate. What YOU do is equate many forms of agnostics as "atheist." This is that liberal arts mind set creeping in. It's Humpty Dumpty and arguing that words mean what you want them to mean rather than setting a standard.
Then you are an idiot.
If you don't give a shit, then why are you even in this discussion to begin with?
Then stop trying to play Humpty Dumpty with the definitions.
I agree with lots of what you are saying, but I disagree with the bolded comment. Totally.
In the mid-20th century, debating atheists realized they could gain an advantage by suggesting that "a" (without) + "theist" (a belief in a god) would = without a belief in a god. That was not the way it had been used...and all dictionaries do is tell us how the word is used.
The word "atheist" came into the English language several decades before the word "theist." It came from "a" (without) + theos (a god) and = without a god. NOT without a BELIEF in a god.
Here is the assertion I am making: Your response of, "I would not answer with any of those and would say 4 - there is simply zero evidence for the Spaghetti Monster or any other god"…IS NOT AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION.
It is a valid response, but it is not an answer to my question…which you can easily answer. You apparently are refusing to answer it, because you are unwilling to say the words, “I do not know”…which of course is the only reasonable ANSWER to the question.
Ask yourself these two questions:
Do you KNOW that at least one god exists?
Do you KNOW that no gods exist?
If both of those questions come up with a NO…then YOU DO NOT KNOW IF A GOD EXISTS OR NOT. If there is a YES answer to either…you are assuming the burden of proof for that assertion.
Stop playing games, QP…and man up. We both know the correct answer to the question. Give it…and then let’s move back to the other discussion we were having.
QP, like some 10-year-old girl, wants it both ways in his favor. He wants to deny the possibility of a god or gods, but doesn't want that belief to be called a religion. Sensible people who don't believe in a god simply ignore the issue as secularists while atheists are loathe to admit they have a religious belief.
The atheist community, as you can see here, goes to great lengths to try and come up with a convoluted definition that denies their faith while still allowing them to deny the existence of a god.
I agree with lots of what you are saying, but I disagree with the bolded comment. Totally.
In the mid-20th century, debating atheists realized they could gain an advantage by suggesting that "a" (without) + "theist" (a belief in a god) would = without a belief in a god. That was not the way it had been used...and all dictionaries do is tell us how the word is used.
The word "atheist" came into the English language several decades before the word "theist." It came from "a" (without) + theos (a god) and = without a god. NOT without a BELIEF in a god.
Yes, and then and now, atheists are loathe to admit that denying the possibility of a god puts them in a position of religious belief. They try mightily to weasel their way out of that.
Using the definition you give, what's the difference between an atheist and a secularist?
Here is the assertion I am making: Your response of, "I would not answer with any of those and would say 4 - there is simply zero evidence for the Spaghetti Monster or any other god"…IS NOT AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION.
It is a valid response, but it is not an answer to my question…which you can easily answer. You apparently are refusing to answer it, because you are unwilling to say the words, “I do not know”…which of course is the only reasonable ANSWER to the question.
Ask yourself these two questions:
Do you KNOW that at least one god exists?
Do you KNOW that no gods exist?
If both of those questions come up with a NO…then YOU DO NOT KNOW IF A GOD EXISTS OR NOT. If there is a YES answer to either…you are assuming the burden of proof for that assertion.
Stop playing games, QP…and man up. We both know the correct answer to the question. Give it…and then let’s move back to the other discussion we were having.
You are like trying to explain science to Marjorie Greene who will insist you know better even as evidence of all your varied mistakes is shown to you.
too your two questions i can answer 'no' to both as i have already MADE IT CLEAR that i have seen no data or information in either direction that would allow me to form a conclusion or opinion on the matter, in any direction. I ALREADY SAID THAT MANY TIMES.
So once again you are factually wrong as i have MANY TIMES PRIOR already said this answer, in multiple ways.
Yes, and then and now, atheists are loathe to admit that denying the possibility of a god puts them in a position of religious belief. They try mightily to weasel their way out of that.
Using the definition you give, what's the difference between an atheist and a secularist?
I dislike the use of descriptors on this issue. The words atheist, agnostic, secularist are used so differently by different people, it does not make much sense to use them. I much prefer to just describe my personal position as carefully as I can.
Yes, and then and now, atheists are loathe to admit that denying the possibility of a god puts them in a position of religious belief. They try mightily to weasel their way out of that.
Using the definition you give, what's the difference between an atheist and a secularist?
An absence of religion is not a religion, nor is not believing in God a belief. I spend no time thinking about God or religion until a "religious" person shoves it in my face. It has nothing to do with my life. I do not miss my Catholic upbringing. It was a waste of time and thought.
- I see no reason to suspect that gods cannot exist…that the existence of a GOD or gods is impossible as there is no foundation for that;
- I see no reason to suspect that at least one GOD must exist...that the existence of at least one GOD is needed to explain existence; (not sure you wrote this as intended but if yes i agree. I also see no reason to believe even one God exists)
- I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction on whether any gods exist or not...nor do I see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess about which is more likely…so I do not guess on either of those things. (only in one instance are you meaningfully registering a "guess". Few would call it a "Guess" to say a lack of belief in a spaghetti monster, where heaven is a pile of pasta with meatballs', is a 'guess' as most simply ' have not formed a view on that, or any of the infinite such numbers of situations i could present. So we do not "guess" on the infinite possibilities. We just hold no view. So i would say instead 'Guessing that god exists (or Xeno) is baseless and without foundation and thus has no meaningful value beyond what the individual imparts on it' Once there is proof or facts presented we can revisit and revise based on those.'
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