This blows me away....

Damocles said:
I support allowing them to stay. I support giving them legal status. Almost all of the people that I know that think the border shouldn't remain wide open does. They just support the first step being to close the border before the path is offered.
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Right. Sure. "Close" the border.

Has there ever once, in the entire history of the world, been a "closed" border?
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Right. Sure. "Close" the border.

Has there ever once, in the entire history of the world, been a "closed" border?
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That there wasn't anything done about it before is not an excuse to continue it now.

Had everybody had that attitude there would have been questions about, "Has there ever been a time where slavery wasn't legal?" and so forth.

If you are fighting a "War on Terror" part of it would be to control who enters your borders. If you don't recognize that it would be, you are just lying to yourself.

Saying, "Well, we never had it before!" is an excuse not a reason not to do something about the porous border. Many Labor Unions, including Jimmy Hoffa, Jr. are beginning to realize what Cesar Chavez realized long ago as he led a march to the border. Such labor debases the strength of organized labor, what Reagan realized when he broke Cesar's Union with "amnesty".

So, you can just go about your merry way ignoring the gaping hole in protectionist policy that I have seen you write about on this very site that an open border, even as currently described, will just continue to debase the middle class in this nation regardless of tariff taxation. Increasing that divide you so properly lament.

It also doesn't change my original point. That most people that want a stronger border do not want to "deport them all".

You haven't listened to O'Reilly if you think that is what he espouses. He espouses exactly what I presented. Strengthen the border, THEN work with the people who otherwise have not broken the law that are here.

It is the same thing that I hear from the vast majority. No serious contender or strong leader has chosen the "deport them all" idea.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Right. Sure. "Close" the border.

Has there ever once, in the entire history of the world, been a "closed" border?
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Yes, the USA closed its borders completely to immigrants and shut off all immigration for a pretty long period of time after we took in a kazillion Irishmen....to allow our new Irish immigrants to ascimilate in to our country before allowing more immigrants in.
 
Didn't we also watch the borders pretty close during WW2 ?
I don't think anyone on here is saying to close the border. Just close them to illegal immigration.
 
I had heard this about the usa's concerns after all of the Irish in sufferage came here....but now I can't find anything yet to back that up...so I need to retract the above post...

Here is what I have found, which is in "general" what our immigration stances have been.

Significant Historic Dates
Affecting US immigrationNaturalization Act of 1790 Stipulated that "any alien, being a free white person, may be admitted to become a citizen of the United States"

1875 Supreme Court declared that regulation of US immigration is the responsibility of the Federal Government.

1882 The Chinese Exclusion Act prohibited certain laborers from immigrating to the United States.

1885 and 1887 Alien Contract Labor laws which prohibited certain laborers from immigrating to the United States.

1891 The Federal Government assumed the task of inspecting, admitting, rejecting, and processing all immigrants seeking admission to the U.S.

1892 On January 2, a new Federal US immigration station opened on Ellis Island in New York Harbor.

1903 This Act restated the 1891 provisions concerning land borders and called for rules covering entry as well as inspection of aliens crossing the Mexican border.

1907 The US immigration Act of 1907 reorganized the states bordering Mexico (Arizona, New Mexico and a large part of Texas) into Mexican Border District to stem the flow of immigrants into the U.S.

1917 - 1924 A series of laws were enacted to further limit the number of new immigrants. These laws established the quota system and imposed passport requirements. They expanded the categories of excludable aliens and banned all Asians except Japanese.

1924 Act Reduced the number of US immigration visas and allocated them on the basis of national origin.

1940 The Alien Registration Act required all aliens (non-U.S. citizens) within the United States to register with the Government and receive an Alien Registration Receipt Card (the predecessor of the "green card").

1950 Passage of the Internal Security Act which rendered the Alien Registration Receipt Card even more valuable. Immigrants with legal status had their cards replaced with what generally became known as the "green card" (Form I-151).

1952 Act Established the modern day US immigration system. It created a quota system which imposes limits on a per-country basis. It also established the preference system that gave priority to family members and people with special skills.

1968 Act Eliminated US immigration discrimination based on race, place of birth, sex and residence. It also officially abolished restrictions on Oriental US immigration.

1976 Act Eliminated preferential treatment for residents of the Western Hemisphere.

1980 Act Established a general policy governing the admission of refugees.

1986 Act Focused on curtailing illegal US immigration. It legalized hundred of thousands of illegal immigrants. It also introduced the employer sanctions program which fines employers for hiring illegal workers. It also passed tough laws to prevent bogus marriage fraud.

1990 Act Established an annual limit for certain categories of immigrants. It was aimed at helping U.S. businesses attract skilled foreign workers; thus, it expanded the business class categories to favor persons who can make educational, professional or financial contributions. It created the Immigrant Investor Program.

USA Patriot Act 2001 : Uniting and Strengthening America by providing appropriate tools required to intercept and obstruct terrorism

Creation of the USCIS 2003 : As of March 1, 2003, the US immigration and Naturalization Service becomes part of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The department’s new U.S. Citizenship and US immigration Services (USCIS) function is to handle US immigration services and benefits, including citizenship, applications for permanent residence, non-immigrant applications, asylum, and refugee services. US immigration enforcement functions are now under the Department's Border and Transportation Security Directorate, known as the Bureau of US immigration and Customs Enforcement (BICE)
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I never really thought about how immigration laws, once the supreme court ruled that our federal government could control it, have been a tool for our gvt to ween their way in to all of our lives and take away our true freedom that we had when we first arrived here as immigrants in our early years as a country.

just look at the history that I posted above....
 
Freedom is easy in a new largely unpopulated country. As a country grows more populated freedom diminishes. It is inevitable.
 
That's very true uscit, and I am not disagreeing with you either.

I am just looking at the history of it and each act that they instituted with the exception of one or two...was to restrict immigration in some manner, and some of these legal restrictions have obviously "caused" the problems we have today with the 12 million illegal immigrants that we have in our country.

I think this is from "failed" immigration policy or the failure to enforce our immigration policy which then sorta becomes our policy.... ;)

Anyway, this exact same immigration "amnesty" thingy was done in 1986 via Reagan and some "supposed" new restrictions were put on to the businesses to fine them if they hired illegals etc....

Well, in hindsight, NONE of what Reagan instituted in this new immigration law that gave these Mexicans amnesty EVER came in to fruition....and today, we have AN ADDITIONAL 12-20 MILLION illegal immigrants....that is failed immigration policy imo, no?

And here we are trying to do the exact same type amnesty program....the same...yes, the same ole thing....

We have those that want to deport all 12 million illegal aliens.

We have those that are against it but see NO feasible way to "export" 12 million people and perhaps even their families who might include a citizen child.

We have those who believe that all of these illegal immigrants are good for our society in every manner and put no burden on to us, and that fully support amnesty in even a more lenient manner than what is being proposed.

And then there are people like Damo and many others that believe we should set laws to secure our border FIRST before giving this amnesty.... AND these are the ones that are doing and accepting the things being TOLD to them....that these security things are even feasible....

"securing the border" type crapola is just "lingo" in my opinion...like those FINES to businesses that WERE SUPPOSE to happen in order for his "amnesty" program and immigration package to work back with Reagan.

WELL, THEY DID NOT COME IN TO FRUITION.....we never really went after businesses for hiring illegals.

and here we are with 12 million plus, illegal immigrants....

The same will happen again...!!!!

DON'T BELIEVE that Big businesses, Farmers, construction companies, hospitality trade and cleaning services, and where ever the new trend leads for businesses that want to reduce their pay structure by hiring illegals, WILL EVER LET OUR GVT enforce our borders... if they make their minds up that they want to take the position of bringing their pay structure down so they can make more in profits than they would if they had to hire American born citizens to do the necessary work....they won't let it happen.

just as our borders being secured and new laws that sounded good like fining businesses for hiring illegals NEVER TOOK place under Reagan, even though most of America agreed with the plan to give amnesty IF THESE LAWS being proposed WERE put in place.

I am rambling, but basically I think that we also need to INCREASE our legal immigration quotas or we may continue to have the same ol' same ol' and 10 years from now another 40 million in unidentified immigrants here in the usa.

Something has to change to give access to immigrants from all countries too, not just from south of our borders.

I don't know the answer to this problem of ours...couple it with terrorists getting in....

I think we do need to secure our borders as Damo and others, but I don't know how it can be done without increasing our legal immigration quotas first....or increasing the fines on businesses to 100 fold of what they are now and also in the same Bill, the money/funding for the next ten years, to pay for an agency that ENFORCES the law.

Also, by increasing the quotas, we can assure these immigrants many more rights of negotiation than they have now in their illegal status imo which is basically being held in servitude with no rights at all....which keeps their pay down, which also then brings american pay scale down... so if they were brought in legally, they would get paid more imo and it would prevent the major drop in usa cits payscale....and the incentive for businesses using this outlet to reduce their overhead costs.

I dunno...this is such a complicated issue...not in words so much, but in actuality, in true feasibility...ya know?

care
 
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Also, by increasing the quotas, we can assure these immigrants many more rights of negotiation than they have now in their illegal status imo which is basically being held in servitude with no rights at all....which keeps their pay down, which also then brings american pay scale down... so if they were brought in legally, they would get paid more imo and it would prevent the major drop in usa cits payscale....and the incentive for businesses using this outlet to reduce their overhead costs.
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I agree. Allowing entry to those who value our way of life is not a bad thing. Only forcing them to come in as "illegals" makes it so that they can be used in such a matter, like flotsam. It devalues their contributions and is a tool used to devalue labor cost. We can open legal immigration while closing illegal pathways, showing value to the lives of those who want to contribute.
 
uscitizen said:
"Forcing" them to come in as illegals. Who here forces them to come in illegally ?
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The Businesses that are hiring them by the boat loads. They don't "really" want them here legally....and that is what has really been going on the past couple of decades and those in office are being "paid off" so to say for keeping it this way all those decades....thus suppressing the wages of the outside of the country "hired help" which then also reduces the wages of the legitimate help.

The thing is, if Mexicans were able to be here legally, I think they could demand more in wages...when they demand more in wages, it could back fire and not be as profitable for these businesses to go outside the united states to find the hired help they need and start hiring Americans again.... maybe a pipe dream but a good one! :)

Care
 
I say deport them all. We can do it. They're lying when they say it's impossible. Let the jews loose in here with their patented Gaza Strip technology.
 
Where's Herr Doktor when you need him with his reports of illegal immigrant Jews and moving trucks...
 
Damocles said:
That there wasn't anything done about it before is not an excuse to continue it now.

Had everybody had that attitude there would have been questions about, "Has there ever been a time where slavery wasn't legal?" and so forth.

If you are fighting a "War on Terror" part of it would be to control who enters your borders. If you don't recognize that it would be, you are just lying to yourself.

Saying, "Well, we never had it before!" is an excuse not a reason not to do something about the porous border. Many Labor Unions, including Jimmy Hoffa, Jr. are beginning to realize what Cesar Chavez realized long ago as he led a march to the border. Such labor debases the strength of organized labor, what Reagan realized when he broke Cesar's Union with "amnesty".

So, you can just go about your merry way ignoring the gaping hole in protectionist policy that I have seen you write about on this very site that an open border, even as currently described, will just continue to debase the middle class in this nation regardless of tariff taxation. Increasing that divide you so properly lament.

It also doesn't change my original point. That most people that want a stronger border do not want to "deport them all".

You haven't listened to O'Reilly if you think that is what he espouses. He espouses exactly what I presented. Strengthen the border, THEN work with the people who otherwise have not broken the law that are here.

It is the same thing that I hear from the vast majority. No serious contender or strong leader has chosen the "deport them all" idea.
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I fail to see how a larger population = no middle class, Damo.
 
Care4all said:
Yes, the USA closed its borders completely to immigrants and shut off all immigration for a pretty long period of time after we took in a kazillion Irishmen....to allow our new Irish immigrants to ascimilate in to our country before allowing more immigrants in.
Click to expand...

We shut off all immigration from China because we hated Chinese people. We've never completely shut off immigration from Europe. Today's immigration regulations are the tightest in US history. In fact, in the 1800's you were considered a citizen just because you wanted to be a US citizen. A person could come over here, claim they wanted to be a citizen, and automatically be given the benefits of citizenship. Such times of hospitality are long gone, however. Now we have emotion and irrationality in their place.
 
For the past 100 years we've been building up more and more and tighter and tighter immigration regulation (with the exception of the 1952 act, which liberalized but didn't really decrease immigration requirements), and we've done practically nothing to stop illegal immigration. Is it really surprising the amount of illegal immigrants we have today?
 
Watermark said:
I fail to see how a larger population = no middle class, Damo.
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Watermark. Population numbers do not mean that there is a middle class. Specific earnings mean such. If those jobs that used to make up the middle class now make less because of a Gray-Market debasing the labor cost you will wind up losing a strong middle class, or the purchasers.

If they could enter legally, the value of their services could actually solidify such a class, but if they are willing to work for pennies on the dollar because of their illegal status it cannot.

The left doesn't seem to realize that their labor unions are basically broken by these people's entry. The right doesn't seem to realize that if those people in the middle no longer make enough to buy their product they will lose the power of earnings.

Both sides are burning both ends of the candle. Sure it burns brighter for a time, but it ends up lasting only half as long and was really a waste of money when a mirror would have done to double the lumen.

Hence the reason the Libertarian party speaks of legal status for immigrants, it isn't for votes or cheap labor but because it actually cuts into a "free market" system to have the gray or black market labor cutting labor costs.

If you are a free market supporter you would not support such gray or black market labor and would far more support a legal status. If you are for security you would prefer to know who entered the nation, therefore you wind up supporting a strong border with legal entry for those who seek to better themselves here.

Thus we get the best of both worlds.

Instead you prefer we ignore the fact that such negatives exist and just keep on in the same direction. At least that seems what you are arguing for. It debases the value of their lives as they often die in the attempt to enter, it debases their values of labor as they are often treated worse than you would treat a dog and sometimes live in worse conditions and it debases your earnings potential through direct hiring of the gray market.
 
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