This month in History...

[Mott the Hoople]

I believe as the decades pass, Reagan's legacy is being tarnished as a more realistic view on his tenure occurs, and the mythology is deconstructed.

I also think Jimmy Carter's legacy is looking incrementally better in hindsight.

Reagan ran a criminal administration, that lied to congress, illegally funded a civil war, and covertly gave high tech American weapons to the Iranian mullahs.

That is not even mentioning the damage Reagan did to the economy and the American middle class through union busting and trickedown economic schemes.

You know one thing positive I can about Bedtime for Bonzo? He seemed to realize that Gorbechev was a different kind of Soviet leader, and Reagan seemed to have a genuine interest in working with Gorby to wind down the nuclear arms race. And I give him credit for that because I can remember most the rightwing wanted to continue the arms race, and they were mad at Reagan from compromising with Gorby.

Which emphasized my point. Reagan was better at diplomacy than you are giving him credit for.

I mean I agree on a lot of things. Much of what I hear people espouse about Carter and Reagan cause, as an old fucker, I remember their administrations and the events that led up to them and during them. There is much Carter deserves criticism for, his negativity, his inability to work with Congress, his tendency to micro-manage but there are things that he did quite well. Like righting the Ship of State after the unmittigated catastrophe that was the Nixon administration.

Many of the problems that faced this nation during Carter's administration were a direct result of the cluster fuck Nixon created. When I hear young Republicans spout the Party catechism about Carter I usually chuckle and take glee in pointing out that almost everything they criticize Carter for was, factually, attributable to Nixon. Carter was the one who had to deal with the fall out. And for the most part he did so capably. His hiring Paul Voelker to head the Fed was an excellent move but it cost him dearly politically speaking.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

True, in some regards they have changed positions

I can say that with certainty. The GOP of today is nothing like it was when I joined it back in the early 80's. It was far more moderate and far less working class back then.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Today’s Republicans aren’t the same as Republicans of the 1910’s and neither are today’s Democrats. Times definitely change.

I would say the moral compass of the 1850s/1910s/etc parties are still the deciding factor in how they turned-out here in 2019. The DNC would still secede over some outrageous/immoral cause, while the GOP would stand firm against it.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Maybe...but it certainly was audacious and risky. Not even Caesar anticipated the Senate panicking and leaving Rome. One has to wonder if Pompey had stayed in Rome and waited till he recieved reliable intelligence of Caesars disposition. Cause if he had he could have stomped his foot and put around a half a dozen legions in the field against Caesar and Caesar would have had to retreat back into Cisalpine Gaul and be branded an Enemy of the State (Hostis) or gone down to military defeat.

There were several times during Caesar Civil War against the Senate where Caesar took huge risks, probably should have lost but improbably won. Crossing the Rubicon was one. The Battle of Dyrrhachium was another. Had Pompey had properly followed up on that victory against Caesar history would consider Pompey Rome's greatest General and First Emperor.

Those were just two examples of where Caesar benefited greatly from pure dumb luck.

Yeah, Pompey was the last thing standing between Caesar and Rome, and he screwed-up. Caesar is one of the luckier generals of all-time. The Roman saying, "may he be luckier than Augustus and better than Trajan" applies more to Julius than to Octavian.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Yeah, Pompey was the last thing standing between Caesar and Rome, and he screwed-up. Caesar is one of the luckier generals of all-time. The Roman saying, "may he be luckier than Augustus and better than Trajan" applies more to Julius than to Octavian.

Well in the end Caesar was assisinated and Octavian did die an old man of natural causes. A rare form of death for a Roman Emperor. It also cast shade on Caesars criticism that Sulla didn’t know his political ABC’s. As Sulla accomplished about as much as Caesar and died an old man of natural causes too. Maybe Sulla was a tad more skilled than Caesar gave him credit for.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I would say the moral compass of the 1850s/1910s/etc parties are still the deciding factor in how they turned-out here in 2019. The DNC would still secede over some outrageous/immoral cause, while the GOP would stand firm against it.

You need to spend some time in Texas son.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Ike and TR represented a moderate GOP who still had conservative principles, minus the social, cultural, or religious populism you see today in the GOP. They are pre Goldwater, and today would be RINOs

Oh yeah, Goldwater. When he ran for president I was still a kid, yet aware of and interested in politics, filtered of course through a child's eye. I have a rather vivid memory of an anti-Goldwater TV commercial that had a video of an atomic bomb explosion and saying something about if he was elected that was our future. It wasn't until later -- much later -- that I realized that he actually was a man of great good sense even if I did not agree with his politics. This view is esp. poignant now, given the current state of the GOP and its leader.

Some selected Goldwater quotes:

"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." (1994)

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operations of the international moneylenders... the accounts of the Federal Reserve have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and... manipulates the credit of the United States " (1979)

"Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed. " (1964)

"You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight." (1993)

"I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass. " (1991)

Source: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater

Mr. Goldwater wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell of being elected under the (R) umbrella today... that's how far they've moved to the fascist dark side.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

People will be getting Martin Luther King Day off without pay

How sad that you think that's funny.

 

[Irish Exit]

How sad that you think that's funny.

Not as sad as thinking your Ivory Tower Princess and her Jester Chuck give a shit about the people being affected. They are pandering to the hispanic voters. Let's see how their resolve holds up when those welfare checks don't go out.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Not as sad as thinking your Ivory Tower Princess and her Jester Chuck give a shit about the people being affected. They are pandering to the hispanic voters. Let's see how their resolve holds up when those welfare checks don't go out.

I have no fucking clue who you are talking about here. Would you care to use some real names? Thanks.

 

[Irish Exit]

I have no fucking clue who you are talking about here. Would you care to use some real names? Thanks.

I am talking about you. I assume you know your name.

 

[Cypress]

Not as sad as thinking your Ivory Tower Princess and her Jester Chuck give a shit about the people being affected. They are pandering to the hispanic voters.

Let's see how their resolve holds up when those welfare checks don't go out.

So, in your opinion Hispanic people are welfare mooches.

My thread ban list is specifically designed to exclude from civilized conversation those people who engage in racism, bigotry, libel, slander, and trolling.
So you are getting added to my thread ban list.

My threads are only for those capable of reasonably civilized dialog. Feel free to indulge your racism on other threads, most of this board's Mods encourage and tolerate bigotry, racism, and xenophobia.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

I am talking about you. I assume you know your name.

I do know my name, but don't know WhoTF are the Ivory Tower Princess and that jester thing you're raging over. I'm also not Hispanic nor have I ever received a welfare check.

 

[Irish Exit]

So, in your opinion Hispanic people are welfare mooches.

My thread ban list is specifically designed to exclude from civilized conversation those people who engage in racism, bigotry, libel, slander, and trolling.
So you are getting added to my thread ban list.

My threads are only for those capable of reasonably civilized dialog. Feel free to indulge your racism on other threads, most of this board's Mods encourage and tolerate bigotry, racism, and xenophobia.

highlight words in completely different sentences to form an idea never stated illustrates how mental you are. I could give a fuck about your "thread ban list".

 

[Minister of Truth]

You need to spend some time in Texas son.

Texans just want to secede because they are Texans. Not too many people would try to dissuade them, I expect.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Oh yeah, Goldwater. When he ran for president I was still a kid, yet aware of and interested in politics, filtered of course through a child's eye. I have a rather vivid memory of an anti-Goldwater TV commercial that had a video of an atomic bomb explosion and saying something about if he was elected that was our future. It wasn't until later -- much later -- that I realized that he actually was a man of great good sense even if I did not agree with his politics. This view is esp. poignant now, given the current state of the GOP and its leader.

Some selected Goldwater quotes:

"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." (1994)

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operations of the international moneylenders... the accounts of the Federal Reserve have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and... manipulates the credit of the United States " (1979)

"Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed. " (1964)

"You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight." (1993)

"I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass. " (1991)

Source: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater

Mr. Goldwater wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell of being elected under the (R) umbrella today... that's how far they've moved to the fascist dark side.

He didn’t stand a snowballs chance in 1964 either but he was a damned interesting man to listen too.

 

[Minister of Truth]

He didn’t stand a snowballs chance in 1964 either but he was a damned interesting man to listen too.

On the plus side, his opponent was such a disaster, it bad to promise not to seek re-election in 1968.

My dad could never stand Goldwater, though. He wanted to see Dirksen get the nomination.

 

[Cypress]

This Day, January 22

This day in History - January 22


1973, Supreme Court legalizes abortion: In a historic decision, the U.S. Supreme Court rules in Roe v. Wade that women, as part of their constitutional right to privacy, can terminate a pregnancy during its first two trimesters.

1840, British colonists reach New Zealand: Under the leadership of British statesman Edward G. Wakefield, the first British colonists to New Zealand arrive at Port Nicholson on Auckland Island.

1980, Andrei Sakharov arrested in Moscow: In Moscow, Andrei Dmitriyevich Sakharov, the Soviet physicist who helped build the USSR’s first hydrogen bomb, is arrested after criticizing the Soviet military intervention in Afghanistan. He was subsequently stripped of his numerous scientific honors and banished to remote Gorky. Born in Moscow in 1921, Sakharov studied physics at Moscow University and in June 1948 was recruited into the Soviet nuclear weapons program. In 1948, after detonating their first atomic bomb, the Soviets joined the United States in the race to develop the hydrogen bomb, a weapon theorized to be dozens of times more powerful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. On November 22, 1955, the Soviet Union successfully detonated its first hydrogen bomb.

Although Sakharov was decorated with numerous Soviet scientific honors for his achievement, the scientist became increasingly concerned with the implications of the terrifying weapon, and he later regretted his responsibility in its creation. In 1957, his concern about the biological hazards of nuclear testing inspired him to write a damning article about the effects of low-level radiation, and he called for the cessation of nuclear tests. The Soviet government kept his criticism quiet until 1969, when an essay Sakharov wrote was smuggled out of the country and published in The New York Times. In the essay, he attacked the arms race and the Soviet political system and called for a “democratic, pluralistic society free of intolerance and dogmatism, a humanitarian society that would care for the Earth and its future.”

Following the publication of his essay, Sakharov was fired from the weapons program and became a vocal advocate of human rights. In 1975, he was the first Soviet to win the Nobel Peace Prize. After he denounced the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Soviet authorities were quick to respond, exiling him to Gorky, where he lived in difficult conditions. In December 1986, Sakharov’s exile ended when Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev invited him to return to Moscow. He was subsequently elected to the Congress of People’s Deputies as a democratic reformer and appointed a member of the commission responsible for drafting a new Soviet constitution. Sakharov died of a heart attack in 1989 at the age of 68.

source credit: history.com

 

[Cypress]

April 9, 1865: Southern Traitors Surrender to American Armed Forces

On April 9, 1865, the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia in the McLean House in the village of Appomattox Court House, Virginia signaled the end of the nation's largest war. Two important questions about its future were answered. Could the nation survive a civil war intact, and would that nation exist without slavery? The answer to both was yes and a new nation was born.

https://www.nps.gov/apco/index.htm

 

[Cypress]

August 6, 1945: The United States Drops the First Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima

I leave it to scholars of history to sort out, but in my layperson opinion:

Japan was not on the verge of surrendering prior to August 6 - Soviet invasion of Manchuria notwithstanding.
Japan fought to the death on Okinawa, the Japanese defenders of the Pacific Islands fought to the last man and never gave the slightest hint they were eager to throw in the towel.
Claims that Japan was ready capitulate and throw up its hands in surrender and submission just prior to August 6 never passed the smell test with me.

A land invasion of Japan undoubtedly would have resulted in massive casualties both for the US military and for Japanese civilians.

On the other hand, bombing a civilian population with nuclear weapons without the slightest warning has to go down in history as an affront to the conduct of moral warfare and reasonable restraint.