Triumps of a Democratic Socialist System - Chavez for Life?

[Cancel 2016.2]

He controlled the Media, the Military, the Oil Industry, and the COURTS the last time this came up for a vote .. and he lost.

And you've ignored the fact the NO ONE was intimidated and NO ONE was afraid to vote no.

And you've ignored that if he loses and election, he's out of office.

There is a plethora of facts you've ignored .. but I wouldn't expect anything more.

The last time he did not pump endless amounts of money from the government into a media blitz. The last time he didnt take the oil trucks and use them to promote his position. I have not 'ignored' that he still has to stand for an election or that if he loses he is out. I am pointing out to the rather slow people that when he has complete control as he does now, his elections will become more and more similar to that of Castro and Saddam.

 

[Bonestorm]

Extreme denial is ignoring that even the opposition said the elections were fair.

Extreme denial is ignoring that international obxervers say the election was fair.

Extreme denial is ignoring that Venezuelan elections have more integrity than American elections.

Extreme denial is ignoring that this measure once failed .. and that 45% of voters voted against it .. thus, how many people were intimidated?

Are you NOW suggesting the (s)election of George Bush was "squeaky clean?"

You get real brother.

1) The opposition hasn't said that the election was fair. In fact, they are saying the opposite.

2) I haven't seen a single report from an international election monitoring group. If you have something on this form please provide it.

3) Really? Perhaps you can provide support for this assertion.

4) Measuring whether people were intimidated by looking at the percentage of people voting against the measure is just plain stupid. And I'm sure you know that.

 

[blackascoal]

It isn't about poverty. They have the money to buy the food, IT JUST ISN'T ON THE SHELVES. Food shortages aren't about poverty, they are about using the most inefficient means of control over the economy.

And those in "poverty" in the US are not quite at the same level of actual poverty in other parts of the world. The comparison is almost laughable. We strangle in our own fat, even among the "poverty" stricken.

I like debating people who don't know shit about socialism .. like you. You've never taken a moment to actually study what you claim to be against, you simply parrot the bullshit you've swallowed.

And get real, you don't give a damn about poverty, American or Venezuelan. You're simply struggling to find a point.

Venezuela: Combatting food shortages

excerpts --

What is responsible?

"... consumption has been dramatically increasing in Venezuela, fuelled by a significant economic boom and the Chavez government’s social policies that have greatly increased the spending capacity of the poorest.

A recent report of the Venezuelan American Chamber of Commerce and Industry revealed that between 2004 and 2006, the real income of the poorest 58% of the population increased by 130% after allowing for inflation. This figure does not take into consideration other benefits that have come about as a result of the government’s social missions that provide free education and health care, nor the impact of the Mercals — state subsidised supermarkets that sell products at an average 39% below prices found elsewhere.

As a result, consumption has more than doubled from US$24 billion in 2004 to $52 billion in 2007. The increased consumption, with production falling well short of demand, partly explains the shortages.

A survey published in October and conducted by Datanalisis, one of the more reliable polling agencies in Venezuela, revealed that 88.4% believed that the solution lies in the government and private companies working together, with 88.1% saying that private companies should be producing more.

Asked if they believed that government price controls — introduced in 2003 to deal with the economic devastation caused by a bosses lock-out that aimed to overthrow the Chavez government — were causing shortages, 69.3% said yes.

The capitalists have fuelled the food shortages by holding goods back from the legal market where price controls lower profit margins, then selling them illegally at exorbitant prices on the black market. Another way around the price controls has been to smuggle food out of Venezuela to be sold in neighbouring Colombia.

The government has taken measures attempting to overcome the problem, including, over the last three years: decreeing the creation of 21 agribusinesses through the state-owned Venezuelan Agrarian Corporation; financing 51 Companies of Social Production (EPS), mainly cooperatives; created several new factories through joint ventures with Cuba and Iran; and established 6000 free food houses for the neediest.

It also initiated Mission Mercal, which coordinates 14,000 government-subsided stores outlets, while making some moves to buy out or expropriate companies involved in food production.

However, these measures fall well short of what is needed to overcome nearly a century of neglect of the countryside, which has left Venezuela dependent on imports for around 70% of its food.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/738/38209

 

[Damocles]

I like debating people who don't know shit about socialism .. like you. You've never taken a moment to actually study what you claim to be against, you simply parrot the bullshit you've swallowed.

And get real, you don't give a damn about poverty, American or Venezuelan. You're simply struggling to find a point.

Venezuela: Combatting food shortages

excerpts --

What is responsible?

"... consumption has been dramatically increasing in Venezuela, fuelled by a significant economic boom and the Chavez government’s social policies that have greatly increased the spending capacity of the poorest.

A recent report of the Venezuelan American Chamber of Commerce and Industry revealed that between 2004 and 2006, the real income of the poorest 58% of the population increased by 130% after allowing for inflation. This figure does not take into consideration other benefits that have come about as a result of the government’s social missions that provide free education and health care, nor the impact of the Mercals — state subsidised supermarkets that sell products at an average 39% below prices found elsewhere.

As a result, consumption has more than doubled from US$24 billion in 2004 to $52 billion in 2007. The increased consumption, with production falling well short of demand, partly explains the shortages.

A survey published in October and conducted by Datanalisis, one of the more reliable polling agencies in Venezuela, revealed that 88.4% believed that the solution lies in the government and private companies working together, with 88.1% saying that private companies should be producing more.

Asked if they believed that government price controls — introduced in 2003 to deal with the economic devastation caused by a bosses lock-out that aimed to overthrow the Chavez government — were causing shortages, 69.3% said yes.

The capitalists have fuelled the food shortages by holding goods back from the legal market where price controls lower profit margins, then selling them illegally at exorbitant prices on the black market. Another way around the price controls has been to smuggle food out of Venezuela to be sold in neighbouring Colombia.

The government has taken measures attempting to overcome the problem, including, over the last three years: decreeing the creation of 21 agribusinesses through the state-owned Venezuelan Agrarian Corporation; financing 51 Companies of Social Production (EPS), mainly cooperatives; created several new factories through joint ventures with Cuba and Iran; and established 6000 free food houses for the neediest.

It also initiated Mission Mercal, which coordinates 14,000 government-subsided stores outlets, while making some moves to buy out or expropriate companies involved in food production.

However, these measures fall well short of what is needed to overcome nearly a century of neglect of the countryside, which has left Venezuela dependent on imports for around 70% of its food.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/738/38209

Seriously, when did you become so disingenuous? It isn't normal for you, therefore I must believe it is the rose colored glasses.

When the government is controlling the means of production, the prices and the stuff was "over-consumed" and is no longer there, it is the fault of the government's inefficient practice and ignorance of basic economic principles such as supply and demand. The "state subsisted supermarkets" are the reason there was a shortage. (Do you even know what inefficient management means? I said it was due to using the most inefficient means to manage the economy and I stand by it. It was even notably exemplified in this article that you disingenuously thought made your point. I thank you for proving mine so well.)

When the food isn't there and there is a shortage, it really doesn't matter to the people who are hungry. Apparently you can ignore every point except the fact that the food wasn't there because it was overconsumed because the government artificially reduced prices. It is government inefficiency that caused the shortages, government shouldn't be in business because stuff like this will constantly be the result.

 

[blackascoal]

1) The opposition hasn't said that the election was fair. In fact, they are saying the opposite.

2) I haven't seen a single report from an international election monitoring group. If you have something on this form please provide it.

3) Really? Perhaps you can provide support for this assertion.

4) Measuring whether people were intimidated by looking at the percentage of people voting against the measure is just plain stupid. And I'm sure you know that.

I'm sure there is a whoile lot of shit you don't know, aren't aware of, or haven't read .. especially when you don't take the 29 seconds it would require to inform yourself.

How can people be this uninformed in the face of access to so much information?

The fact that Venezuelan elections are fair and declared so by international observers is no secret .. no secret at all.

Venezuelan Elections Transparent and Exemplary, International Observers Report

Caracas, February 15th 2009 (Venezuelanalysis.com) -- International observers of Venezuela's referendum Sunday, in which nearly 55% of voters approved a constitutional amendment to eliminate the two-term limit on elected offices, praised the security, transparency, and organization of Venezuela's electoral system, calling it an example for the region and for the world.

“The referendum complied with international standards and national legislation, especially with regard to communication and the transparency of the electoral administration,” according to Nicanor Moscoso, the president of the Latin American Council of Electoral Experts.

In a press conference Monday, Brazilian delegate Max Altman commented on the secrecy of the vote. “I was very impressed by how the Venezuelan electoral sysem is totally reinforced and how well-secured the voting is,” he said. “I hope this democatic feeling persists in Venezuela, as well as in all our countries in the region.”

Altman further highlighted the enthusiastic participation of Venezuelan voters. “When the Venezuelan people are called on to participate in an historic occasion, they make their presence felt,” he said, noting that more than 70% of registered voters went to the polls Sunday, according to Venezuela's National Electoral Council (CNE).

Paraguayan delegate Hector Lacognata also commented on the high turnout. “The electoral process is really a big celebratioin here. The people assume that voting is a duty and an obligation, a right to be acted upon,” he said.

“Paraguay is asking that the CNE transfer to us the electronic system [of voting],” Lacognata added. “We have utmost respect for the Venezuelan electoral process, which is an example for Latin America and the rest of the world.”

The CNE set up 11,300 voting centers to serve 16.8 million registered voters, and activated 35,000 electronic voting machines, which were accompanied by cardboard ballot boxes in which voters deposited a paper record of their vote.

“We are observing the vote counting and this is an example for the world. This guarantees transparency and assures Venezuelans that their vote will be counted,” said the president of Nicaragua's National Council of Universities, Francisco Talavera.

“This electoral process was characterized by its transparency, efficacy, security, and organization. The referendum re-affirmed the democratic expression of the Venezuelan people,” said Talavera.

Manolis Glezox, an election observer from Greece, addressed accusations by leaders of the anti-amendment campaign that government institutions were biased in favor of the pro-amendment campaign.

“Those who were not in agreement [with the amendment] had the opportunity to express their opinions in a democratic manner in newspapers as well as the audio visual media,” said Glezox. “The vote discounted the commentaries that suggested that in Venezuela there is a dictatorship.”

After the CNE announced the results Sunday, opposition leaders recognized the legitimacy of the results and conceded defeat.

A non-partisan national electoral observation organization called Ojo Electoral (Election Watch) noted the “tranquility and normality” of the voting on Sunday. Ojo Electoral spokesperson Luis Lander reported that the Venezuelan National Guard, which was deployed to secure voting centers across the country, displayed “correct behavior” throughout the day.

Also, Lander lauded the fact that people from both pro- and anti-amendment political groups audited the voting machines and served as witnesses within each voting center, and that problems with voting machines and other such irregularities “were resolved promptly and appropriately.”
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4219

The ignorance of Americans is astounding .. and predictable.

 

[Bonestorm]

I'm sure there is a whoile lot of shit you don't know, aren't aware of, or haven't read .. especially when you don't take the 29 seconds it would require to inform yourself.

How can people be this uninformed in the face of access to so much information?

The fact that Venezuelan elections are fair and declared so by international observers is no secret .. no secret at all.

Venezuelan Elections Transparent and Exemplary, International Observers Report

Caracas, February 15th 2009 (Venezuelanalysis.com) -- International observers of Venezuela's referendum Sunday, in which nearly 55% of voters approved a constitutional amendment to eliminate the two-term limit on elected offices, praised the security, transparency, and organization of Venezuela's electoral system, calling it an example for the region and for the world.

“The referendum complied with international standards and national legislation, especially with regard to communication and the transparency of the electoral administration,” according to Nicanor Moscoso, the president of the Latin American Council of Electoral Experts.

In a press conference Monday, Brazilian delegate Max Altman commented on the secrecy of the vote. “I was very impressed by how the Venezuelan electoral sysem is totally reinforced and how well-secured the voting is,” he said. “I hope this democatic feeling persists in Venezuela, as well as in all our countries in the region.”

Altman further highlighted the enthusiastic participation of Venezuelan voters. “When the Venezuelan people are called on to participate in an historic occasion, they make their presence felt,” he said, noting that more than 70% of registered voters went to the polls Sunday, according to Venezuela's National Electoral Council (CNE).

Paraguayan delegate Hector Lacognata also commented on the high turnout. “The electoral process is really a big celebratioin here. The people assume that voting is a duty and an obligation, a right to be acted upon,” he said.

“Paraguay is asking that the CNE transfer to us the electronic system [of voting],” Lacognata added. “We have utmost respect for the Venezuelan electoral process, which is an example for Latin America and the rest of the world.”

The CNE set up 11,300 voting centers to serve 16.8 million registered voters, and activated 35,000 electronic voting machines, which were accompanied by cardboard ballot boxes in which voters deposited a paper record of their vote.

“We are observing the vote counting and this is an example for the world. This guarantees transparency and assures Venezuelans that their vote will be counted,” said the president of Nicaragua's National Council of Universities, Francisco Talavera.

“This electoral process was characterized by its transparency, efficacy, security, and organization. The referendum re-affirmed the democratic expression of the Venezuelan people,” said Talavera.

Manolis Glezox, an election observer from Greece, addressed accusations by leaders of the anti-amendment campaign that government institutions were biased in favor of the pro-amendment campaign.

“Those who were not in agreement [with the amendment] had the opportunity to express their opinions in a democratic manner in newspapers as well as the audio visual media,” said Glezox. “The vote discounted the commentaries that suggested that in Venezuela there is a dictatorship.”

After the CNE announced the results Sunday, opposition leaders recognized the legitimacy of the results and conceded defeat.

A non-partisan national electoral observation organization called Ojo Electoral (Election Watch) noted the “tranquility and normality” of the voting on Sunday. Ojo Electoral spokesperson Luis Lander reported that the Venezuelan National Guard, which was deployed to secure voting centers across the country, displayed “correct behavior” throughout the day.

Also, Lander lauded the fact that people from both pro- and anti-amendment political groups audited the voting machines and served as witnesses within each voting center, and that problems with voting machines and other such irregularities “were resolved promptly and appropriately.”
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4219

The ignorance of Americans is astounding .. and predictable.

That's all well and good, but what is Sumate saying about it?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

1) The opposition hasn't said that the election was fair. In fact, they are saying the opposite.

2) I haven't seen a single report from an international election monitoring group. If you have something on this form please provide it.

3) Really? Perhaps you can provide support for this assertion.

4) Measuring whether people were intimidated by looking at the percentage of people voting against the measure is just plain stupid. And I'm sure you know that.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/02/14/venezuela-envoy.html?ref=rss

This is what happens to observers who critcize Chavez or the process.

 

[blackascoal]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/02/14/venezuela-envoy.html?ref=rss

This is what happens to observers who critcize Chavez or the process.

That's what happens to people who are supposed to be impartial making statements that are derogatory towards the very process they are supposed to be impartially judging.

Chavez is not a dictator, and only an ignorant or biased person would suggest it.

Why should he have been allowed to further denigrate the process?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That's what happens to people who are supposed to be impartial making statements that are derogatory towards the very process they are supposed to be impartially judging.

Chavez is not a dictator, and only an ignorant or biased person would suggest it.

Why should he have been allowed to further denigrate the process?

LMFAO.... you have to be kidding... If the observers feel the process is a sham, they are not supposed to be deragatory?

He used government funds, the military, the oil companies and the media to blanket his position. He was criticized for doing so.

Like I said, these elections are drifting closer and closer to those of Castro and Saddam.

 

[blackascoal]

That's all well and good, but what is Sumate saying about it?

From my perspective, who cares?

SUMATE has demonstrated themselves to be a puppet organization used by the American government and capitailaist opposition to Chavez .. they even accept money from the US government.

How would that work in the US .. a political organization that accepts money from foreign governments?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3813

Constitutional lawyer and National Assembly Deputy Carlos Escarrá explained to the press, "The constitution of Venezuela expresses that a foreigner with a tourist visa cannot make commentaries against the President of the Republic."

Venezuelan Foreign Minister Nicolás Maduro warned in a press conference that "any other foreigner... who attempts to come to Venezuela and use our democratic order, with the total freedom of expression, to assault our institutions in a rude manner... will receive the same reply."

HRW's report, titled "A Decade Under Chávez: Political Intolerance and Lost Opportunities for Advancing Human Rights in Venezuela," says the two-day coup against President Hugo Chávez in April 2002 was the "most dramatic setback" to the human rights guarantees of the 1999 Constitution, but that the Chávez administration has since used the coup as a pretext to undercut those rights.

Specifically, the government has engaged in "discrimination on political grounds," "open disregard for the principle of separation of powers," and has "undercut journalists' freedom of expression, workers' freedom of association, and civil society's ability to promote human rights in Venezuela," according to the report, which bases its conclusions on interviews conducted over the past two years.
"

Nothing to see here... nothing at all... everything is on the up and up... totally fair...

 

[blackascoal]

LMFAO.... you have to be kidding... If the observers feel the process is a sham, they are not supposed to be deragatory?

He used government funds, the military, the oil companies and the media to blanket his position. He was criticized for doing so.

Like I said, these elections are drifting closer and closer to those of Castro and Saddam.

You can say whatever you want my friend .. doesn't make it any less credible.

Not the observers, just one observer (singular) who was brought in by the opposition. Calling Chavez a dictator when he is not seems a reasonable cause for his dismissal.

The observers declared the election fair .. see above post.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

From my perspective, who cares?

SUMATE has demonstrated themselves to be a puppet organization used by the American government and capitailaist opposition to Chavez .. they even accept money from the US government.

How would that work in the US .. a political organization that accepts money from foreign governments?

See China/Clintons for the answer to that.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You can say whatever you want my friend .. doesn't make it any less credible.

Not the observers, just one observer (singular) who was brought in by the opposition. Calling Chavez a dictator when he is not seems a reasonable cause for his dismissal.

The observers declared the election fair .. see above post.

yes, and the human rights people kicked out for criticizing Chavez... its no wonder everyone who was left in Venezuela was supporting Chavez. If you dare to criticize you get the boot.

 

[KingCondanomation]

I believe that many of the poor do indeed love Chavez for all the changes he has brought.
But the key is that nearly all of that positive change came from a high oil price, while most of the negative change came from bad government policies.
The oil price has crashed and is steadily low, while the bad government policies continue, let's hold off and see how they are doing after a year of low oil prices before declaring Chavez a success.

Socialism does not increase wealth or encourage the creation of it, it just regresses and redistributes it.

 

[Topspin]

Chavez's great work has his economy about on par with Russia at about $12,000 per person. HMMM love that socialism.