UAW 'vs' EVs

cawacko said:
That's kind of the impression I was getting but I know that it may not be that black and white. (Everything is so politized and you have people virtue signaling their stance such as 'I stand with labor' that I appreciated getting a more nuanced view of the positions and negotiations taking place.)
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Yeah, it isn't that black and white, mostly because the government already chose the new electric prod over the buggy whip and isn't letting the market decide.
 
Jarod said:
I do not support keeping jobs around at the cost of scientific and societal progress, I do support retraining.

I stand with labor in that they could give huge raises with small percentage cuts in CEO and Executive salaries.

I do not know what they will do, maybe lose them to attrition or big severens packages, but dont stick with old tech to save unnecessary jobs.
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What old tech? EVs offer no significant advantages over ICEs. Certainly NO WHERE NEAR the advantages of an ICE over a horse. And if you look at Model T lets say, as poor of an example as that is of a car it was MILES ahead of horses in advantages. The fact that EVs have to be foisted on people tells us what we need to know.
 
Yakuda said:
What old tech? EVs offer no significant advantages over ICEs. Certainly NO WHERE NEAR the advantages of an ICE over a horse. And if you look at Model T lets say, as poor of an example as that is of a car it was MILES ahead of horses in advantages. The fact that EVs have to be foisted on people tells us what we need to know.
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I love my plug in hybird, I almost never use gas, but when I need it, its there.
 
Nordberg said:
If that is true, then he can tell you about all the ICEs he has put out. It is a normal part of the job.
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Nordy, you are smarter than that. There is something like under 5% of the vehicles on the road that are electric so your question is flawed in its premise.
When caught early, I have put out two car fires with the extinguisher I carry in my personal vehicle. Once an EV fire starts, get away now. It can easily take 6000 gallons of water to extinguish. If in an open space, many FD will let it burn itself out then it gets hauled away as hazardous waste.

You want one, I am happy for you. Stop telling me I HAVE to own one.

https://www.ctif.org/news/150-000-liters-water-needed-put-out-fire-electric-car
 
Nordberg said:
If that is true, then he can tell you about all the ICEs he has put out. It is a normal part of the job.
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Yes but ICE cars are not as hard to extinguish and not as hard to safely cut victims out of. If you cut a EV in the wrong place you can be electrocuted or you can electrocute the occupants. Plus shorts in the battery compartment don't just go out. They keep generating heat and fire. Water can make things worse.
 
Lionfish said:
Nordy, you are smarter than that. There is something like under 5% of the vehicles on the road that are electric so your question is flawed in its premise.
When caught early, I have put out two car fires with the extinguisher I carry in my personal vehicle. Once an EV fire starts, get away now. It can easily take 6000 gallons of water to extinguish. If in an open space, many FD will let it burn itself out then it gets hauled away as hazardous waste.

You want one, I am happy for you. Stop telling me I HAVE to own one.

https://www.ctif.org/news/150-000-liters-water-needed-put-out-fire-electric-car
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Yeah I saw a video of them picking a burning EV up with a loader and dump it in a body of water to put it out .
 
Lionfish said:
Nordy, you are smarter than that. There is something like under 5% of the vehicles on the road that are electric so your question is flawed in its premise.
When caught early, I have put out two car fires with the extinguisher I carry in my personal vehicle. Once an EV fire starts, get away now. It can easily take 6000 gallons of water to extinguish. If in an open space, many FD will let it burn itself out then it gets hauled away as hazardous waste.

You want one, I am happy for you. Stop telling me I HAVE to own one.

https://www.ctif.org/news/150-000-liters-water-needed-put-out-fire-electric-car
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I go by a ratio, not the number. ICEs burn at 4 times EV rates. Telling you? Who is doing that? ICEs will be around for your whole life. There will be millions built. As people learn how much better EVs are, you will have ample opportunity to buy ICEs.
 
cawacko said:
I acknowledge up front not being a car person. It's just not something I'm all that knowledgeable or passionate about. Nor am I a union person. I've never been in a union nor can I speak to their true inter-workings. That being said, I found this Odd Lots Podcast with Steven Rattner quite interesting/insightful. Rattner is a Democrat who Obama appointed as the 'car czar' during the auto bailouts of the late aughts. Rattner is clearly a smart guy and almost caught me off guard that he spoke here not as an ideologue or a partisan but just as someone who has been on the front lines and understands all sides of the issue.

Here's my question (and my apologies if this topic has already been discussed). He referenced the negotiation points of the UAW and not that they are in total conflict with EVs but they also aren't fully seeing eye-to-eye in the sense that EVs tend to use less labor, which isn't exactly ideal from a union perspective. Is that the case? (He referenced a company like Tesla being non-unionized and having advantages as a result when competing against the traditional automakers.)

He also broke down the UAW demands and what he felt were reasonable asks and 'crazy' asks, which was insightful. For anyone so inclined here's the link to the podcast.


When the US auto industry needed a restructuring or bailout in 2009, the Obama administration tapped former banker and investor Steven Rattner to lead the effort. As the government's "car czar," he helped shape an agreement that saw the United Auto Workers accept significant concessions in order to preserve the financial stability of the big three American carmakers. Now the UAW is on strike, with an aim of reversing many of those concessions and gaining new benefits for their workers. So what can the UAW reasonably accomplish? How plausible are their asks? And can US industry remain competitive with higher labor costs? On this episode of Odd Lots, we speak with Rattner to get his take on the negotiations, the challenge of the energy transition on the incumbent automakers, and the goals of Bidenomics more broadly, as the administration seeks to boost domestic manufacturing in areas like EVs, batteries, and semiconductors.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...e-uaw-strike-and/id1056200096?i=1000628747870
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So EVs tend to use less labor. Interesting. Is it because EVs area simpler technology, easier to maintain, more reliable that old gas cars?
 
Joe Capitalist said:
So EVs tend to use less labor. Interesting. Is it because EVs area simpler technology, easier to maintain, more reliable that old gas cars?
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No, it's because more labor goes into subassemblies at feeder plants rather than being done at the assembly factory. For example, battery packs arrive at the assembly plant already put together but require far more labor to make to begin with.
 
Jarod said:
I do not support keeping jobs around at the cost of scientific and societal progress, I do support retraining.

I stand with labor in that they could give huge raises with small percentage cuts in CEO and Executive salaries.

I do not know what they will do, maybe lose them to attrition or big severens packages, but dont stick with old tech to save unnecessary jobs.
Click to expand...

I'm not a labor guy (I don't belong to a union) so I can't answer this but does 'standing with labor' entail supporting all of their wants? Or can you support them with just some of their wishes?

I saw you ask do you stand with labor or management. What if management, following the edict of the federal gov't, is pushing for more EVs and labor is fighting them on it. Can one stand with management then? Seems there could be nuance involved.
 
Joe Capitalist said:
So EVs tend to use less labor. Interesting. Is it because EVs area simpler technology, easier to maintain, more reliable that old gas cars?
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I'll show my ignorance as I'm not a car guy. Are you saying interesting because you didn't know that? Or are you saying interesting because you disagree? It's a long listen (50 minutes) but you'd probably find the podcast interesting. Offers real good insight into the big auto makers.
 
cawacko said:
I'm not a labor guy (I don't belong to a union) so I can't answer this but does 'standing with labor' entail supporting all of their wants? Or can you support them with just some of their wishes?

I saw you ask do you stand with labor or management. What if management, following the edict of the federal gov't, is pushing for more EVs and labor is fighting them on it. Can one stand with management then? Seems there could be nuance involved.
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You keep going to this EV argument, but I was listening to a story about this strike, Labor is not fighting against EV's and they are not fighting over labor force reduction, they are fighting for increased wadges. While CEO benefits went up over 40%, theirs maxed out at 6%. A Union employee would have to work 150 years to earn one year of top managements pay.

Labor pay has slightly increased while the Auto Manufacturers have made record profits.
 
Jarod said:
You keep going to this EV argument, but I was listening to a story about this strike, Labor is not fighting against EV's and they are not fighting over labor force reduction, they are fighting for increased wadges. While CEO benefits went up over 40%, theirs maxed out at 6%. A Union employee would have to work 150 years to earn one year of top managements pay.

Labor pay has slightly increased while the Auto Manufacturers have made record profits.
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Consumer demand should drive the car market, not labor's demand. It's Economics 101. Consumers want EVs so car manufacturers should comply.
 
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Jarod said:
You keep going to this EV argument, but I was listening to a story about this strike, Labor is not fighting against EV's and they are not fighting over labor force reduction, they are fighting for increased wadges. While CEO benefits went up over 40%, theirs maxed out at 6%. A Union employee would have to work 150 years to earn one year of top managements pay.

Labor pay has slightly increased while the Auto Manufacturers have made record profits.
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Listen to the podcast (yes it's long but it is really really insightful - as stated Rattner is a Democrat who was Obama's car czar and negotiated the 2009 bailout. He's a very smart guy and through his experiences has great insight into the auto manufactures and labor. He also comes across as a straight shooter - he's not an ideologue or blind partisan). Wages are a big part of it but far from the only thing being negotiated. The move to EVs will have an effect on jobs. Rattner breaks it down clearly the tensions involved and how that's being negotiated.
 
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