Unwinding the Fiat Economy

[Good Luck]

And on that note, why try to change anything or get up in the morning, or even have a government.

You're a moron.

Although, i understand your point. Im actually for the elimination of currency and moveing to a pure barter system.

Is it your belief that nothing can be done about any form of currency control? We shoud just accept our fate as the slaves of those who control the money system?

Well, since you haven't a foggy clue or even a suggestion other than barter (and you call me a moron.) how to address the issue, how does my question make me a moron?

I strongly believe SOMETHING needs to be done. Just because I ask a question which points out a difficult aspect of the monetary system does not mean I think nothing should be done. I figured it is worth pointing out that a simple move to PM based currency does not necessarily guarantee the government can't continue to fuck with currency values.

As far as solutions go, first, get rid of the federal reserve system. The Constitution give the federal government the power to coin money. It does not give them the power to operate a banking system - especially when half that banking system is actually privately owned. It's the fox guarding the hen house.

What I suggest is to set the PM value of the dollar by Constitutional Amendment. That way they'd have a hell of a time changing it. Or, at least have a Constitutional amendment define and limit how, when, and under what circumstances the PM value of the dollar can be changed.

The government claims the need to be able to "fine tune" the economy by direct control of currency. It's a load of shit. The fact that they keep messing around with things is a major factor in the instability of our economy. They are trying to control a complex system via positive feedback. You can ask any mechanical or civil engineer what happens when complex systems are controlled via positive feedback.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Well, since you haven't a foggy clue or even a suggestion other than barter (and you call me a moron.) how to address the issue, how does my question make me a moron?

I strongly believe SOMETHING needs to be done. Just because I ask a question which points out a difficult aspect of the monetary system does not mean I think nothing should be done. I figured it is worth pointing out that a simple move to PM based currency does not necessarily guarantee the government can't continue to fuck with currency values.

As far as solutions go, first, get rid of the federal reserve system. The Constitution give the federal government the power to coin money. It does not give them the power to operate a banking system - especially when half that banking system is actually privately owned. It's the fox guarding the hen house.

What I suggest is to set the PM value of the dollar by Constitutional Amendment. That way they'd have a hell of a time changing it. Or, at least have a Constitutional amendment define and limit how, when, and under what circumstances the PM value of the dollar can be changed.

The government claims the need to be able to "fine tune" the economy by direct control of currency. It's a load of shit. The fact that they keep messing around with things is a major factor in the instability of our economy. They are trying to control a complex system via positive feedback. You can ask any mechanical or civil engineer what happens when complex systems are controlled via positive feedback.

The first step is educating the populace about the totalitarian nature of our money system: A fact which you agree with. Regardess of what we do, the first step is getting a critical mass of awareness to make sure something is, INDEED, done. Barter is reasonable, despite your reactionary stupidity.

I will believe you care about this when you stop acting like we should just accept control of our live through currency manipulation of any kind and stop attacking me. Fonzie says, "sit on it".


A currency backed by a bunch of differenct commodities would be better.

 

[Good Luck]

The first step is educating the populace about the totalitarian nature of our money system: A fact which you agree with. Regardess of what we do, the first step is getting a critical mass of awareness to make sure something is, INDEED, done. Barter is reasonable, despite your reactionary stupidity.

I will believe you care about this when you stop acting like we should just accept control of our live through currency manipulation of any kind and stop attacking me. Fonzie says, "sit on it".


A currency backed by a bunch of differenct commodities would be better.

I'll believe you aren't a complete asshole when you stop acting like one. You call for educating people, but then call people who ask questions morons. How is that educating them? What actual piece of information have you given me in response to my questions?

WHERE in any of this discussion have I indicated we should simply accept what currency manipulation is doing to us? Point out the exact phrase that says anything to that effect. Otherwise, sit and spin, twit.

There are lots of PMs, that's why I use that term instead of gold, or gold and silver. We could also use platinum, palladium, rhodium, osmium, iridium, gallium, germanium, tellurium, even copper.

Specifically, what other commodities would you suggest?

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

I'll believe you aren't a complete asshole when you stop acting like one. You call for educating people, but then call people who ask questions morons. How is that educating them? What actual piece of information have you given me in response to my questions?

WHERE in any of this discussion have I indicated we should simply accept what currency manipulation is doing to us? Point out the exact phrase that says anything to that effect. Otherwise, sit and spin, twit.

There are lots of PMs, that's why I use that term instead of gold, or gold and silver. We could also use platinum, palladium, rhodium, osmium, iridium, gallium, germanium, tellurium, even copper.

Specifically, what other commodities would you suggest?

Step one is educating people to the problem. When we can accomplish that, more minds will be focussed on the issue. Surely you can agree with that. And really it's as you said the first time, all currency will be amenable to manipulation, which is why barter system is preferable.

I shan't be answering any more of your needling questions. Damo tries this bullshit too. So does medved. Capable gatekeepers all, but ultimately fraudulent in their sincerity.


Step 1: Educate the population about the problem.

Let's just get that out of the way. Can you assist with that?

I suspect as a member of the military industrial complex, that you are actually fine with fiat currency.

 

[midcan5]

Dear Ass,

So good to hear someone thinks as I do, we need to stay in communication so we can break the chains that kept us from achieving our goals, and the goals of capitalism. I'm waiting right now on a pardon as soon as Rand or Sarah become president, but soon you and I can rule the world. Keep the plan moving.

Yours in Money,

Bernie

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Dear Ass,

So good to hear someone thinks as I do, we need to stay in communication so we can break the chains that kept us from achieving our goals, and the goals of capitalism. I'm waiting right now on a pardon as soon as Rand or Sarah become president, but soon you and I can rule the world. Keep the plan moving.

Yours in Money,

Bernie

I don't want to rule the world. I just want to stop assholes who do.

Sincerely,

 

[Good Luck]

I shan't be answering any more of your needling questions.

So much for the education approach. "listen to my crap, but don't you dare ask questions."

Admit it - you're a whiny attention whore, and nothing more. You cannot discuss an issue coherently even with people who agree with your basic tenets.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

So much for the education approach. "listen to my crap, but don't you dare ask questions."

Admit it - you're a whiny attention whore, and nothing more. You cannot discuss an issue coherently even with people who agree with your basic tenets.

Attention to the problem is a separate issue than possible solutions.

We don't need a fully worked out solution in order to raise awareness about the totalitarianism of fiat currency, a fact you agree with.

Step 1 is education about the issue.

Will you help raise awareness about something you agree is totalitarian in nature?

yes or no.

 

[Good Luck]

Attention to the problem is a separate issue than possible solutions.

We don't need a fully worked out solution in order to raise awareness about the totalitarianism of fiat currency, a fact you agree with.

Step 1 is education about the issue.

Will you help raise awareness about something you agree is totalitarian in nature?

yes or no.

I speak out against the federal reserve often and call for its dissolution, and in various places. Since I am on the fence about what to do with the currency situation, I mostly mention that changes need to be made.

But I disagree that possible solutions or alternatives should not be part of the education process. You tell people fiat currency is a bad thing that allows the government undue power, and MOST will ask you "Why"? Some who already agree will ask "So what should be done?" Others may actually (gasp!) challenge your proclamation with the fact that commodities based currencies also have their problems and vulnerabilities to manipulation. Calling them all morons and moving on isn't going to result in the movement you desire - you'll only end up making enemies out of many potential allies. Not all who question - or even challenge your conclusions are automatically perpetual enemies. Part of the education process is presenting information so they will change their minds. No one is going to change their mind when their questions result in being labeled a moron.

Also, if/when a popular movement forms around the issue, there will be calls for change. If we do not have at least a general outline of what needs to be done (more than just get rid of fiat currency) then it will fall apart before it gets going. Discussing potential solutions, which includes criticism of those solutions proposed, is not calling for a definitive blue print solution. But as the issue is presented, people WILL ask "so what can/should we do?", and those who started the whole thing are going to need more than "fuck if I know, we haven't gotten to that step yet."

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

I speak out against the federal reserve often and call for its dissolution, and in various places. Since I am on the fence about what to do with the currency situation, I mostly mention that changes need to be made.

But I disagree that possible solutions or alternatives should not be part of the education process. You tell people fiat currency is a bad thing that allows the government undue power, and MOST will ask you "Why"? Some who already agree will ask "So what should be done?" Others may actually (gasp!) challenge your proclamation with the fact that commodities based currencies also have their problems and vulnerabilities to manipulation. Calling them all morons and moving on isn't going to result in the movement you desire - you'll only end up making enemies out of many potential allies. Not all who question - or even challenge your conclusions are automatically perpetual enemies. Part of the education process is presenting information so they will change their minds. No one is going to change their mind when their questions result in being labeled a moron.

Also, if/when a popular movement forms around the issue, there will be calls for change. If we do not have at least a general outline of what needs to be done (more than just get rid of fiat currency) then it will fall apart before it gets going. Discussing potential solutions, which includes criticism of those solutions proposed, is not calling for a definitive blue print solution. But as the issue is presented, people WILL ask "so what can/should we do?", and those who started the whole thing are going to need more than "fuck if I know, we haven't gotten to that step yet."

You';re completely wrong. Education is step one regardless.

Talking about the totalitarian nature of the power of creating money out of thin air is just fine to do without talking about solutions.

Your demands for solutions beforehand is just your way of trying to shutdown the discourse.

I've never seen you say shit thing one about fiat currency on your own volition.


you don't really want reform, you're just finding reason to be a jackoffface about it.

Post a link to you saying shit thing one about fiat currency, if you can, liar.

 

[Good Luck]

You';re completely wrong. Education is step one regardless.

Talking about the totalitarian nature of the power of creating money out of thin air is just fine to do without talking about solutions.

Your demands for solutions beforehand is just your way of trying to shutdown the discourse.

I've never seen you say shit thing one about fiat currency on your own volition.


you don't really want reform, you're just finding reason to be a jackoffface about it.

Post a link to you saying shit thing one about fiat currency, if you can, liar.

Like I said, your approach will do little more than make enemies out of potential allies.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Like I said, your approach will do little more than make enemies out of potential allies.

I don't believe so.

so you will help raise awareness of the issue? You can talk about solutions if you want to, in how you do it.

It's actually quite assinine to believe an issue can't be raised without having solutions all worked out. But that's just your little charade to scuttle the whole discusssion, isn't it? of course it is.

Did you find that link of you being outraged about fiat currency? or is that just more of your bs?

 

[Minister of Truth]

You';re completely wrong. Education is step one regardless.

Talking about the totalitarian nature of the power of creating money out of thin air is just fine to do without talking about solutions.

Your demands for solutions beforehand is just your way of trying to shutdown the discourse.

I've never seen you say shit thing one about fiat currency on your own volition.


you don't really want reform, you're just finding reason to be a jackoffface about it.

Post a link to you saying shit thing one about fiat currency, if you can, liar.

Says the guy who recently switched jerkoff hands...

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

So now Good luck will go back to pretending trade can be free despite the totalitarianism of fiat currency.

According to good luck, there is no real choice besides fiat currency totalitarianism. his charade is such a pale reflection of honesty.

 

[Minister of Truth]

So now Good luck will go back to pretending trade can be free despite the totalitarianism of fiat currency.

According to good luck, there is no real choice besides fiat currency totalitarianism. his charade is such a pale reflection of honesty.

Says the guy who doesn't believe in freedom. You want to trap us all in a feudal society.

 

[Good Luck]

Zombie's Asshole does not want discussion - he wants attention, like a whiny 3 year old crying for a mommy that doesn't hug him enough.

Hey Asshole. I'll trade you fresh lettuce from my garden for a computer. How much lettuce equals one computer?

The local gas station needs to fill their tanks so they can sell the gasoline to people who drive cars. How many chickens do they need to trade for 25,000 gallons of 88 octane automotive gasoline?

 

[Minister of Truth]

Zombie's Asshole does not want discussion - he wants attention, like a whiny 3 year old crying for a mommy that doesn't hug him enough.

Hey Asshole. I'll trade you fresh lettuce from my garden for a computer. How much lettuce equals one computer?

The local gas station needs to fill their tanks so they can sell the gasoline to people who drive cars. How many chickens do they need to trade for 25,000 gallons of 88 octane automotive gasoline?

I already tried this on him. I asked if he would trade me a gallon of milk for my stash of 12 comics. He self-pwned himself by answering "no." With two little letters he destroyed barter all on his own.

 

[Good Luck]

I already tried this on him. I asked if he would trade me a gallon of milk for my stash of 12 comics. He self-pwned himself by answering "no." With two little letters he destroyed barter all on his own.

Well, just because one mindless child cannot hold a rational discussion does not mean no one can.

What do you think? I am totally opposed to the federal reserve system. But I do admit that some kind of department needs to be within the federal government to handle the authority to "coin money (and) regulate the value thereof". So, what do we replace the federal reserve with? And how do we replace fiat currency with a some kind of real-economy based currency in such a way that its value cannot be constantly tweeked in mindless attempts to regulate the economy?

And, to acknowledge Zombie's Asshole rice-grain of truth, how do we get the people to recognize the crap that is being pulled on us daily by a corrupt system that has zero responsibility to the people they are screwing over? Calling people who ask questions "moron" (or worse) ain't gonna do it, I can guarantee that much.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Well, just because one mindless child cannot hold a rational discussion does not mean no one can.

What do you think? I am totally opposed to the federal reserve system. But I do admit that some kind of department needs to be within the federal government to handle the authority to "coin money (and) regulate the value thereof". So, what do we replace the federal reserve with? And how do we replace fiat currency with a some kind of real-economy based currency in such a way that its value cannot be constantly tweeked in mindless attempts to regulate the economy?

And, to acknowledge Zombie's Asshole rice-grain of truth, how do we get the people to recognize the crap that is being pulled on us daily by a corrupt system that has zero responsibility to the people they are screwing over? Calling people who ask questions "moron" (or worse) ain't gonna do it, I can guarantee that much.

Well, the Dept. of Treasury already prints cash, and another dept. oversees the mint, which gives us our coins. The Reserve is just a half-assed version of the National Bank. I support the Fed, and my only real problems with it are the economic philosophies of those who normally govern it (not monetarists), and the fact that it can control and manipulate interest rates, which only ever has negative long-term effects on the economy, such as what we have just witnessed with the current recession.

 

[Good Luck]

Well, the Dept. of Treasury already prints cash, and another dept. oversees the mint, which gives us our coins. The Reserve is just a half-assed version of the National Bank. I support the Fed, and my only real problems with it are the economic philosophies of those who normally govern it (not monetarists), and the fact that it can control and manipulate interest rates, which only ever has negative long-term effects on the economy, such as what we have just witnessed with the current recession.

The main problem with the reserve is that it is a meld of government agency and private banking interests. In short, there are private bankers having control over the availability and value of the currency our economy runs on. Calling it a conflict of interest is like saying BP has had a minor spill. Like I said, the Constitution mandates that the federal government has the authority to coin AND SET THE VALUE of currency in this nation. Therefore that particular aspect of the federal reserve I haven't a problem with (except the dough heads who run it.)

The other problem is there is no limit to how much the federal reserve can do to influence the money supply. It is more than simply adjusting interest rates (a whole different kettle of fish with its own influences and consequences). It literally has nothing to do with the economy - they are taking numbers out of thin air and giving them value. If a bank has new loans to make, they don;t have to actually HAVE the money, they just ask the federal reserve for it. The problme is the federal reserve does not have the money either, they just issue it, brand new numbers in the computer. Thes days they don't even have to wind up the presses at the mint. Just "Sure, you can have another 50 billion dollars." and pull it out of the nethers.

That is NOT what money is. Money - and it does not matter if it has a real-item backing or not - is a SYMBOL of real value - the value of the economy itself. Giving money itself value changes the relationship of money to economic reality - distorts the hell out of it.

By backing currency with something real, it KIND of places a limit on how the government can influence the money supply, but unless there is an added limit on HOW they set the value of currency, they can still get away with effectively running 100 bills through the TP factory. To use the traditional gold-backed dollar, there is still that relationship between the value of gold and the value of other items in the economy. Play with that basic relationship too much by changing the value of the dollar compared to its gold backing, and again the relationship is distorted, causing problems (inflation, etc.) The only difference (though, psychologically a not-insignificant one) is they have to actively and up front diminish the dollar value compared to its commodity backing when they bring a bunch of new, unsupported cash, into the economy.

I say we need to get rid of the federal reserve system. Yes, we need a federal department that handles the coining money and setting value of the U.S. dollar. But the current system is fucked, and the best way to change it would be get rid of it and start over from scratch with a new system that includes a commodity based currency, and a treasury dept. that has specific limited ability to change things like the dollar value relative to its backing while putting things like interest rates in law (ie: takes an act of congress, signed by the president to change them).