'When John McCain was my captive'

[Damocles]

Hmmm

Sad.

 

[Damocles]

It was controlled, by Bush's people.

Yes. That was my point.

 

[Bonestorm]

Not like it was coming out in the campaign. Most in the US still didn't know.

You're out of your mind. The idea that McCain lost in 2000 because his wife's addiction, which she publicly acknowledged in 1994, became "public knowledge" and the McCain campaign didn't "control the release of information" is just the type of revisionist bullshit I'd expect from you. It's right up there with the claptrap that the SBVFT didn't negatively impact Kerry and that the Bush campaign had nothing to do with it.

Please, Damo. You're off the deep end here.

 

[Cancel7]

You're out of your mind. The idea that McCain lost in 2000 because his wife's addiction, which she publicly acknowledged in 1994, became "public knowledge" and the McCain campaign didn't "control the release of information" is just the type of revisionist bullshit I'd expect from you. It's right up there with the claptrap that the SBVFT didn't negatively impact Kerry and that the Bush campaign had nothing to do with it.

Please, Damo. You're off the deep end here.

QFT Damo, he saved me the trouble. You really are a revisionist. I think the most laugh out loud funny bullshit claim you have pulled out of your ass is that the swiftboat campaign "backfired" and hurt bush. Get a fucking clue.

 

[blackascoal]

I think he will. As I stated I think it will backfire. Especially with a POW who chose to stay.

I think it is the Obama campaign that wants you to be quiet about it, it is why he has tried to shut down and control the 527s as well... Controlling the message will be vital to his campaign because things like this will harm it, irreparably, if it becomes a political football.

I believe that Obama won't use it, but Dems already have tried. That they more than happily would have continued to use it had Obama's campaign not (masterfully IMO) shut them down. Yet you vote for them...

I'm not a democrat and I'm voting for Obama, not the Democratic Party .. and although I support him, I don't work for the Obama campaign. I couldn't care less what they do or do not want to hear.

I repeat.. Obama doesn';t have to use it and he can rail against the 5237's all he wants, this information is going to get out there.

You can believe this is going to backfire .. that's cool .. but I do not, and I, like a great many others will continue to press him on these issues.

He can run, but he can't hide.

 

[Damocles]

You're out of your mind. The idea that McCain lost in 2000 because his wife's addiction, which she publicly acknowledged in 1994, became "public knowledge" and the McCain campaign didn't "control the release of information" is just the type of revisionist bullshit I'd expect from you. It's right up there with the claptrap that the SBVFT didn't negatively impact Kerry and that the Bush campaign had nothing to do with it.

Please, Damo. You're off the deep end here.

I don't think so.

I said that it was coupled with the push-polling in SC and his loss there. There were many different things happening at the same time. This wasn't the sole reason for it, there wasn't a "sole reason".

It certainly wasn't because of his service in Viet Nam. That's silly.

Most people in the US still did not know about Cindy's addiction, and because they didn't inoculate the campaign early against that, it snuck up on them. That IMO, coupled with the loss in SC because of the push-polling, was the reason of the early end to his campaign.

 

[uscitizen]

Not like it was coming out in the campaign. Most in the US still didn't know. As I said, controlling the release would have helped them...

as I said the release was controlled and it did help them. Bush's side that is.
You pretended it was new news in 2000, but it was 6 yrs old.

 

[Damocles]

You're out of your mind. The idea that McCain lost in 2000 because his wife's addiction, which she publicly acknowledged in 1994, became "public knowledge" and the McCain campaign didn't "control the release of information" is just the type of revisionist bullshit I'd expect from you. It's right up there with the claptrap that the SBVFT didn't negatively impact Kerry and that the Bush campaign had nothing to do with it.

Please, Damo. You're off the deep end here.

QFT Damo, he saved me the trouble. You really are a revisionist. I think the most laugh out loud funny bullshit claim you have pulled out of your ass is that the swiftboat campaign "backfired" and hurt bush. Get a fucking clue.

I don't think so.

I said that it was coupled with the push-polling in SC and his loss there. There were many different things happening at the same time. This wasn't the sole reason for it, there wasn't a "sole reason".

It certainly wasn't because of his service in Viet Nam. That's silly.

Most people in the US still did not know about Cindy's addiction, and because they didn't inoculate the campaign early against that, it snuck up on them. That IMO, coupled with the loss in SC because of the push-polling, was the reason of the early end to his campaign.

See the above...

 

[Damocles]

as I said the release was controlled and it did help them. Bush's side that is.
You pretended it was new news in 2000, but it was 6 yrs old.

What? Are you a child?

My point was that if McCain had controlled it, he may have remained in the race. It would depend on whether he could use the push-poll against Bush. But all of these things together created his early departure.

Because McCain allowed Bush to gain the advantage in the release, he lost to Bush.

The story was not knowledge in most American households. Shoot, most people here didn't even know about it until just recently. Why? Because McCain realized it was a campaign killer and left the race early.

 

[blackascoal]

McCain reached Hoa Lo in the worst physical shape of any prisoner during the war.[91] His captors refused to give him medical care unless he gave them military information; they beat and interrogated him, but McCain only offered his name, rank, serial number, and date of birth[92][93] (all that is required under the Geneva Conventions). Soon thinking he was near death, McCain said he would give them more information if taken to the hospital,[92] hoping he could then put them off once he was treated.[94] A prison doctor came and said it was too late, as McCain was about to die anyway.[92] Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care[92] — calling him "the crown prince"[91] — and announce his capture. At this point, two days after McCain's plane went down, that event and his status as a POW made the front pages of The New York Times[75] and The Washington Post.[95] Interrogation and beatings resumed in the hospital; McCain gave his ship's name, squadron's name, and the attack's intended target[96] (disclosing this information was in violation of the U.S. Code of Conduct, which McCain later wrote he regretted, although he saw the information as being of no practical use to the North Vietnamese).[97] Further coerced to give future targets, he named cities that had already been bombed, and responding to demands for the names of his squadron members, he supplied instead the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line.[96][98]

McCain spent six weeks in the hospital,[85] receiving marginal care in a dirty, wet environment.[99] A prolonged attempt to set the fractures on his right arm, done without anesthetic, was unsuccessful;[100] he received an operation on his broken leg but no treatment for his broken left arm.[101] He was temporarily taken to a clean room and interviewed by a French television reporter whose report was carried months later on CBS.[102] McCain was observed by a variety of North Vietnamese, including Defense Minister and Army commander-in-chief General Vo Nguyen Giap.[103] Many of the North Vietnamese observers assumed that McCain must be part of America's political-military-economic elite.[104] Now having lost fifty pounds (twenty-three kilograms), in a chest cast, covered in grime and eyes full of fever, and with his hair turned white,[85] in December 1967 McCain was sent to a prisoner-of-war camp on the outskirts of Hanoi nicknamed "the Plantation".[105] He was placed in a cell with two other Americans (one was George "Bud" Day, an Air Force pilot and future Medal of Honor recipient), who did not expect him to live a week.[106] They nursed McCain and kept him alive;[103] Day would later remember that McCain had "a fantastic will to live."[107]

In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[108] Unknown to the POWs, in May 1968, Jack McCain was named Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command (CINCPAC) effective in July, stationed in Honolulu and commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.[109][3] John McCain was soon offered a chance to return home early.[110] The North Vietnamese wanted a worldwide propaganda coup by appearing merciful,[111] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[110] McCain turned down the offer of release, due to the POWs' "first in, first out" interpretation of the U.S. Code of Conduct:[112] he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[85][113] McCain's refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese senior negotiator Le Duc Tho to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman, during the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.[114]

In August 1968, a program of vigorous torture methods began on McCain.[115] The North Vietnamese used rope bindings to put him into prolonged, painful positions and severely beat him every two hours, all at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[115][85] Teeth and bones were broken again, as was McCain's spirit; the beginning of a suicide attempt was stopped by guards.[85] After four days of this, McCain signed and taped[116] an anti-American propaganda "confession" that said, in part, "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life, thanks to the doctors."[115][85] He used stilted Communist jargon and ungrammatical language to signal that the statement was forced.[98] He was haunted then and always with the feeling that he had dishonored his country, his family, his comrades and himself by his statement,[117][118] but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[89] His injuries to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head.[23] Two weeks later his captors tried to force him to sign a second statement; his will to resist restored, he refused.[115] He sometimes received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal;[119] the sustained mistreatment went on for over a year.[107] His boxing experience from his Naval Academy days helped him withstand the battering,[35] and the North Vietnamese were never able to break him again.[115]

Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements,[120][121] with many enduring even worse treatment than McCain.[122] Under extreme duress, virtually all the POWs eventually yielded something to their captors.[123][120] On one occasion, a guard surreptitiously loosened McCain's painful rope bindings for a night; when, months later, the guard later saw McCain on Christmas Day, he stood next to McCain and silently drew a cross in the dirt with his foot.[124] In October 1968, McCain's isolation was partly relieved when Ernest C. Brace was placed in the cell next to him;[125] he taught Brace the prisoners' tap code method of communication.[126] On Christmas Eve 1968, a church service for the POWs was staged for photographers and film cameras; McCain defied North Vietnamese instructions to be quiet, speaking out details of his treatment then shouting "Fu-u-u-u-ck you, you son of a bitch!" and giving the finger whenever a camera was pointed at him.[127] McCain refused to meet with various anti-Vietnam War peace groups coming to Hanoi,[128] such as those led by David Dellinger, Tom Hayden, and Rennie Davis, not wanting to give either them or the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory based on his connection to his father.[89] McCain was still badly hobbled by his injuries, earning the nickname "Crip" among the other POWs,[129][130] but despite his physical condition, continued beatings and isolation, he was one of the key players in the Plantation's resistance efforts.[131]

In May 1969, U.S. Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird began publicly questioning North Vietnamese treatment of U.S. prisoners.[132] On June 5, 1969, a United Press International report described a Radio Hanoi broadcast that denied any such mistreatment.[132] The broadcast excerpted from McCain's forced "confession" of a year before, including a statement where he said he had bombed "cities, towns and villages" and had received "very good medical treatment" as a prisoner.[132][133] In late 1969, treatment of McCain and the other POWs suddenly improved.[134][135] North Vietnamese ruler Ho Chi Minh had died the previous month, causing a possible change in policy towards POWs.[134] A badly beaten and weakened POW who had been released that summer disclosed to the world press the conditions to which they were being subjected,[89] and the National League of Families of American Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia, including McCain's brother Joe, heightened awareness of the POWs' plight.[136] In December 1969, McCain was transferred back to the Hoa Lo "Hanoi Hilton";[137] his solitary confinement ended in March 1970.[138] When the prisoners talked about what they wanted to do once they got out, McCain said he wanted to become President.[57] McCain consented to a January 1970 interview outside Hoa Lo with Spanish-born, Cuban psychologist Fernando Barral, that was published in the official Cuban newspaper Granma.[139] In it, McCain talked about his life and expressed no remorse for his actions in bombing North Vietnam,[139] and Barral proclaimed him "an insensitive individual without human depth."[140] The POWs issued an edict forbidding any further such interviews,[139] and despite pressure McCain subsequently refused to see any anti-war groups or journalists sympathetic to the North Vietnamese regime.[140]

McCain and other prisoners were moved around to different camps at times, but conditions over the next several years were generally more tolerable than they had been before.[89] Unbeknownst to them, each year that Jack McCain was CINCPAC, he paid a Christmastime visit to the American troops in South Vietnam serving closest to the DMZ; he would stand alone and look north, to be as close to his son as he could get.[141] By 1971, some 30–50 percent of the POWs had become disillusioned about the war and less reluctant to make propaganda statements for the North Vietnamese.[123] McCain was not among them; he participated in a defiant church service[142] and lead an effort to only write letters home that portrayed the camp in a negative light;[143] he spent much of the year in a camp reserved for "bad attitude" cases.[123] Back at the "Hanoi Hilton" from November 1971 onward,[144] McCain and the other POWs cheered the resumed bombing of the north starting in April 1972, whose targets included the Hanoi area and whose daily orders were issued by Jack McCain, knowing his son was in the vicinity.[145] Jack McCain's tour as CINCPAC ended in September 1972,[146] despite his desire to have it extended so he could see the war to its conclusion.[141] The POWs cheered even more during the intense "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972, when Hanoi was subjected for the first time to repeated B-52 raids.[145] Although its explosions lit the night sky and shook the walls of the camp, the POWs saw it as a forceful measure to compel North Vietnam to finally come to terms.[145]

Altogether, McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. The Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending direct U.S. involvement in the war, but the Operation Homecoming arrangements for POWs took longer.[147] McCain was finally released from captivity on March 14, 1973,[148] having been a POW for almost an extra five years due to his refusal to accept the out-of-sequence repatriation offer. For his actions as a POW, McCain would be awarded the Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, three more instances of the Bronze Star, another instance of the Navy Commendation Medal, and the Purple Heart.[82][48] He also gained an appreciation, from the help and organized resistance of the POWs, that his earlier individualism needed to be tempered by belief and sacrifice causes greater than self-interest.[118]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war

By the very words you posted .. McCain agreed to tell the Vietnamese what they wanted in exchange for medical treatment .. is that the stuff war heros are made of? He not only told the Vietnamese what they wanted, he also made propaganda films for them. Is that the stuff heros are made of?

Since he's been out of the POW camp, McCain has been the best friend the VC have ever had in American politics.

Go here and read what other POW's have to say about the golden boy.

Click on the video link below and you will see a revealing snapshot of "the real" John McCain and his ongoing love affair with leaders of communist Vietnam as contrasted to his rude, hateful treatment of families of men still missing as a result of the Vietnam War.

In 2005, just after Sen. McCain finished warmly introducing Vietnam Prime Minister Phan Van Khai to a Washington, D.C. audience of corporate representatives wishing to take advantage of Vietnam's cheap "slave labor market," Vietnam veteran Jerry Kiley threw a glass of red wine on Khai's vacated seat. Kiley was protesting Vietnam's continuing chronic human rights abuses and McCain's betrayal of America's left behind POWs.

McCain ordered Kiley arrested and jailed accused of assault on Khai. Months later, a U.S. court after hearing over two days testimony against Kiley, ruled that the veteran did not assault Khai. All charges were dismissed despite the protest of McCain's surrogates.

Kiley, a long time activist against human rights abuses still occurring in Vietnam; is co-founder of Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain.

The woman being treated so poorly by McCain is Delores Alfond, chairman of the National Alliance of POW/MIA Families. She was trying to give testimony before the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/video_prime_viet.htm

 

[Chapdog]

IF you guys want to use this rubbish go ahead. I don't like it and I don think Obama needs it to win.

if anything it takes obama down a notch playing dirty politics.

 

[blackascoal]

IF you guys want to use this rubbish go ahead. I don't like it and I don think Obama needs it to win.

if anything it takes obama down a notch playing dirty politics.

You and your fellow Bush voter keep saying that "Obama doesn't need this" and suggesting it take him down a notch .. but Obama isn't using it .. concerned Americans are.

AND .. McCain opened the door to this with his LIE that he was about to be promoted to Admiral but turned it down so he could serve in politics. It was a BLATANT LIE about his military record and he opened the door to find out what other lies lurked in his background.

Serious questions about someone's past only becomes dirty politics when it's leveled at republicans.

 

[Bonestorm]

What? Are you a child?

My point was that if McCain had controlled it, he may have remained in the race. It would depend on whether he could use the push-poll against Bush. But all of these things together created his early departure.

Because McCain allowed Bush to gain the advantage in the release, he lost to Bush.

The story was not knowledge in most American households. Shoot, most people here didn't even know about it until just recently. Why? Because McCain realized it was a campaign killer and left the race early.

McCain left the race after Super Tuesday when he lost New York and California. In the Republican winner-take-all system, the game was over at that point. It had little to nothing to do with Cindy McCain and everything to do with the fact that he couldn't win.

 

[blackascoal]

McCain left the race after Super Tuesday when he lost New York and California. In the Republican winner-take-all system, the game was over at that point. It had little to nothing to do with Cindy McCain and everything to do with the fact that he couldn't win.

That is EXACTLY correct.

 

[Chapdog]

You and your fellow Bush voter keep saying that "Obama doesn't need this" and suggesting it take him down a notch .. but Obama isn't using it .. concerned Americans are.

unless he publicly denounces and asks them to stop then its same as him using it. EOM.

 

[uscitizen]

IF you guys want to use this rubbish go ahead. I don't like it and I don think Obama needs it to win.

if anything it takes obama down a notch playing dirty politics.

you missed the point, Barr needs it.

 

[uscitizen]

unless he publicly denounces and asks them to stop then its same as him using it. EOM.

LOL, the closet doors are swinging wide open this morning

 

[Socrtease]

It came from that idiot who went after Kerry. Who apparently believes that only his service in Viet Nam was honorable, anybody else... well...

Pretending that it's all good because now it is the left hooking onto this guy's bandwagon is pretense and simply wrong. There is no value to Obama to attempt this, only negative. I hope, against all Obama's hopes, that your message gets out to his detriment.

Damo you are 100% right. I don't know what John McCain said or didn't say while stuck in that shithold POW camp. What I do know from first hand experience is that anything said while being tortured you aren't responsible for. I went through an SAS SERE school while stationed in Germany. They put us through enhanced interrogation techniques. I know that if someone wants you to talk you will talk. Using this sort of information, regardless of who created it, is shitty. If your kid was in a combat theater and was captured and tortured and gave statements, you DAMN sure wouldn't want people criticizing or belittling them because of it. I will not judge McCain's service because I didn't go through what he went through.

 

[Damocles]

McCain left the race after Super Tuesday when he lost New York and California. In the Republican winner-take-all system, the game was over at that point. It had little to nothing to do with Cindy McCain and everything to do with the fact that he couldn't win.

Even with the Winner takes all system, two primaries are not a win.

It was those two coupled with his loss in SC, the momentum had shifted and largely because he was working defense rather than controlling the message.

Seriously, I'm talking strategic politics here. One of the main reasons for Obama's success is his control of the message and the fast-response team working the defense to offense message. It's been very effective for him.

The main reason for McCain's first loss was his team's ineffective slow response and inability to work with projections and understand what the other side may attack. Because of that he was unable to control how things came out, and it worked against him every time.

 

[Damocles]

Damo you are 100% right. I don't know what John McCain said or didn't say while stuck in that shithold POW camp. What I do know from first hand experience is that anything said while being tortured you aren't responsible for. I went through an SAS SERE school while stationed in Germany. They put us through enhanced interrogation techniques. I know that if someone wants you to talk you will talk. Using this sort of information, regardless of who created it, is shitty. If your kid was in a combat theater and was captured and tortured and gave statements, you DAMN sure wouldn't want people criticizing or belittling them because of it. I will not judge McCain's service because I didn't go through what he went through.

QFT