Where are the "Examples" We DON'T See?

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

In the Health Care debate, the Liberals (including Obama Himself) used to their advantage, the old Ronald Reagan trick of trotting out the "example" to illustrate the point they are trying to make...supposedly.

We saw all of these poor souls who's stories touched our hearts, and we felt so much compassion for them, and how could we oppose this Health Care Monstrosity with a clear conscience after hearing their "story?" Now, in most of the cases, it was found that the 'poor soul' in question, DID get the necessary medical care, and WAS eligible for financial assistance programs already in place, but we are not supposed to think about that aspect. This was an example to show us how great things will be now that we have Obamacare!

What I want to see, are the other "examples" ....the ones they failed to trot out! I want to see the 26 year old still living at home with mom, staying on the Internet 24/7 and getting a disability check for being a lazy cheetos eating fat ass who doesn't want to work, but likes spending all day in mom's basement, pontificating on a message board about Marxism! I want them to trot THAT "example" out!

Or, how about the Stay-at-home Housewife of some dope peddler who doesn't have her on his insurance, and so she sits at home all day bored, watching Jerry Springer, and needs some "Meds" to calm her anxiety and depression? Where is THAT "example" of how our tax dollars are going to be used?

Or.... How about Little Old Miss Emma... every day she has a new symptom and possibly a new disease, there is a rash, but sometimes there are whelps. There are times when her sight is blurry and sometimes she can see spots, but that comes and goes. Her toes really do hurt lately, she thinks it might be some fungal infection, she isn't sure, and she has this itching behind her knees, but no rash... and her sinuses sometimes act up, she has all kinds of allergies you know.... and of course, her insurance company canceled her years ago because she was an admitted hypochondriac, but now with Obamacare, all her worries are over! ....Where was THAT "example?"

We also didn't see Victor the Gay AIDS guy! The one who can't get the $10,000 a week drug cocktails to sustain some quality of life and function with his terminal disease. See, the insurance companies have a problem with the pre-existing condition he suffers from, because of the cost factor of 'treatment' in his case. So, Obamacare fixes that, and we should be pleased to know we are paying for literally thousands of Victors out there! Now why wasn't THIS "example" trotted out?

............So many missed opportunities!

 

[Topspin]

Jesus could come back and run as a democrat and you teabaggers would spit on him and call him a lazy long haired socialist.

 

[apple0154]

I want to see the 26 year old still living at home with mom, staying on the Internet 24/7 and getting a disability check for being a lazy cheetos eating fat ass who doesn't want to work, but likes spending all day in mom's basement, pontificating on a message board about Marxism!

Or, how about the Stay-at-home Housewife of some dope peddler who doesn't have her on his insurance, and so she sits at home all day bored, watching Jerry Springer, and needs some "Meds" to calm her anxiety and depression?

How about Little Old Miss Emma... every day she has a new symptom and possibly a new disease........... and of course, her insurance company canceled her years ago because she was an admitted hypochondriac....

We also didn't see Victor the Gay AIDS guy! The one who can't get the $10,000 a week drug cocktails to sustain some quality of life and function with his terminal disease.

You silly, silly man. Those are precisely the people who do need medical attention. A healthy 26 year old is not going to sit in his mother's basement. Healthy 26 year olds want to work. They want to buy things. They want to date. They want to go out.

The wife of the drug dealer trapped in that lifestyle.

Little Old Miss Emma craving attention.

There's more to being a doctor than fixing broken bones or removing an inflamed appendix. A doctor is responsible for the complete health of an individual and that includes mental health.

In our mobile society people lose contact with friends and family. People have less contact with spiritual leaders.

Primary care physicians can recommend more than pills. They can suggest groups/organizations for the patient to check out. The interaction with others often results in the distraction from "real" pain not to mention psychosomatic illnesses.

You have to examine your ideas concerning the role doctors play. It's all about change.

And then we come to Victor. What would be your solution?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

In the Health Care debate, the Liberals (including Obama Himself) used to their advantage, the old Ronald Reagan trick of trotting out the "example" to illustrate the point they are trying to make...supposedly.

We saw all of these poor souls who's stories touched our hearts, and we felt so much compassion for them, and how could we oppose this Health Care Monstrosity with a clear conscience after hearing their "story?" Now, in most of the cases, it was found that the 'poor soul' in question, DID get the necessary medical care, and WAS eligible for financial assistance programs already in place, but we are not supposed to think about that aspect. This was an example to show us how great things will be now that we have Obamacare!

What I want to see, are the other "examples" ....the ones they failed to trot out! I want to see the 26 year old still living at home with mom, staying on the Internet 24/7 and getting a disability check for being a lazy cheetos eating fat ass who doesn't want to work, but likes spending all day in mom's basement, pontificating on a message board about Marxism! I want them to trot THAT "example" out!

Or, how about the Stay-at-home Housewife of some dope peddler who doesn't have her on his insurance, and so she sits at home all day bored, watching Jerry Springer, and needs some "Meds" to calm her anxiety and depression? Where is THAT "example" of how our tax dollars are going to be used?

Or.... How about Little Old Miss Emma... every day she has a new symptom and possibly a new disease, there is a rash, but sometimes there are whelps. There are times when her sight is blurry and sometimes she can see spots, but that comes and goes. Her toes really do hurt lately, she thinks it might be some fungal infection, she isn't sure, and she has this itching behind her knees, but no rash... and her sinuses sometimes act up, she has all kinds of allergies you know.... and of course, her insurance company canceled her years ago because she was an admitted hypochondriac, but now with Obamacare, all her worries are over! ....Where was THAT "example?"

We also didn't see Victor the Gay AIDS guy! The one who can't get the $10,000 a week drug cocktails to sustain some quality of life and function with his terminal disease. See, the insurance companies have a problem with the pre-existing condition he suffers from, because of the cost factor of 'treatment' in his case. So, Obamacare fixes that, and we should be pleased to know we are paying for literally thousands of Victors out there! Now why wasn't THIS "example" trotted out?

............So many missed opportunities!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You silly, silly man. Those are precisely the people who do need medical attention. A healthy 26 year old is not going to sit in his mother's basement. Healthy 26 year olds want to work. They want to buy things. They want to date. They want to go out.

Sure they do, and most of them have whatever insurance they feel like they need, not that they really need that much medical care. So they would be poor "examples" ...the 26 year old who we are going to contribute 36% of our pay to, while trying to send our kids to college... that is the "example" that should have been trotted out. Let's hear his story... let's hear how you aren't going to make him change his sedentary lifestyle, you are merely going to provide him with free medical care at our expense.

The wife of the drug dealer trapped in that lifestyle.

Oh she's not trapped, she's bored. Stuck where she is without any mental stimulation and seeking happiness through chemical dependency, and now she will have her drugs fully provided for at taxpayer expense. Let's hear her story, how you are not going to do anything to make her change her lifestyle, you are just going to fund her prescription drug habit with MY tax dollars.

Little Old Miss Emma craving attention.

Emma is a Hypochondriac. It is a clinical mental illness, not "craving attention" ...but regardless, all of her assorted aches and pains, all the countless hours of medical professionals time and patience, all of the testing and lab work, all of the expense involved in pacifying her hypochondria, is all covered under Obamacare, and she doesn't have to pay a dime for it anymore.... it's all on us!

There's more to being a doctor than fixing broken bones or removing an inflamed appendix. A doctor is responsible for the complete health of an individual and that includes mental health.

It's good you know so much about what it takes to be one, because you will probably be recruited sooner or later. About half of your practicing physicians are planning to quit in the next few years, and with millions of new patients like Miss Emma coming into the system, we are going to need every able minded person to help out!

In our mobile society people lose contact with friends and family. People have less contact with spiritual leaders.

Primary care physicians can recommend more than pills. They can suggest groups/organizations for the patient to check out. The interaction with others often results in the distraction from "real" pain not to mention psychosomatic illnesses.

You have to examine your ideas concerning the role doctors play. It's all about change.

Why can't they just prescribe pills? Doesn't matter if they aren't getting paid... prescribe a pill or sit and explain options about different groups to the patient? Seems easier for them to prescribe a pill... takes a second compared to 30 minutes... time is money! They have patients to see... Miss Emma is waiting!

And then we come to Victor. What would be your solution?

My solution would be to send YOU to Victors house to give him sponge baths and change his bedpans... dress his oozing sores... and make him as comfortable as possible in his dying days. Because you are concerned with him, you want him to be taken care of, and I know you would love to be able to do that... so this would be my solution! I think it beats the shit outta me paying 36% of my income while trying to send my kids to college.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Sure they do, and most of them have whatever insurance they feel like they need, not that they really need that much medical care. So they would be poor "examples" ...the 26 year old who we are going to contribute 36% of our pay to, while trying to send our kids to college... that is the "example" that should have been trotted out. Let's hear his story... let's hear how you aren't going to make him change his sedentary lifestyle, you are merely going to provide him with free medical care at our expense.



Oh she's not trapped, she's bored. Stuck where she is without any mental stimulation and seeking happiness through chemical dependency, and now she will have her drugs fully provided for at taxpayer expense. Let's hear her story, how you are not going to do anything to make her change her lifestyle, you are just going to fund her prescription drug habit with MY tax dollars.



Emma is a Hypochondriac. It is a clinical mental illness, not "craving attention" ...but regardless, all of her assorted aches and pains, all the countless hours of medical professionals time and patience, all of the testing and lab work, all of the expense involved in pacifying her hypochondria, is all covered under Obamacare, and she doesn't have to pay a dime for it anymore.... it's all on us!



It's good you know so much about what it takes to be one, because you will probably be recruited sooner or later. About half of your practicing physicians are planning to quit in the next few years, and with millions of new patients like Miss Emma coming into the system, we are going to need every able minded person to help out!



Why can't they just prescribe pills? Doesn't matter if they aren't getting paid... prescribe a pill or sit and explain options about different groups to the patient? Seems easier for them to prescribe a pill... takes a second compared to 30 minutes... time is money! They have patients to see... Miss Emma is waiting!



My solution would be to send YOU to Victors house to give him sponge baths and change his bedpans... dress his oozing sores... and make him as comfortable as possible in his dying days. Because you are concerned with him, you want him to be taken care of, and I know you would love to be able to do that... so this would be my solution! I think it beats the shit outta me paying 36% of my income while trying to send my kids to college.

Until Victor turns out to be your kid. Then you'll be singing a different tune.

 

[Topspin]

If we are going to piss away good money, and we are. I'd rather do it on HC and education verses exterminating Muslims.

 

[apple0154]

Replies in blue.

(Post #4)

Originally Posted by apple0154 You silly, silly man. Those are precisely the people who do need medical attention. A healthy 26 year old is not going to sit in his mother's basement. Healthy 26 year olds want to work. They want to buy things. They want to date. They want to go out.

Sure they do, and most of them have whatever insurance they feel like they need, not that they really need that much medical care. So they would be poor "examples" ...the 26 year old who we are going to contribute 36% of our pay to, while trying to send our kids to college... that is the "example" that should have been trotted out. Let's hear his story... let's hear how you aren't going to make him change his sedentary lifestyle, you are merely going to provide him with free medical care at our expense.

How do you know he won’t change? The problem is he has a problem and until it’s rectified he won’t change.

The wife of the drug dealer trapped in that lifestyle.

Oh she's not trapped, she's bored. Stuck where she is without any mental stimulation and seeking happiness through chemical dependency, and now she will have her drugs fully provided for at taxpayer expense. Let's hear her story, how you are not going to do anything to make her change her lifestyle, you are just going to fund her prescription drug habit with MY tax dollars.

Really? Doctors are going to prescribe drugs equivalent to the strength/effect of street drugs when people in pain have a problem getting decent pain meds? Wrong guess.

Little Old Miss Emma craving attention.

Emma is a Hypochondriac. It is a clinical mental illness, not "craving attention" ...but regardless, all of her assorted aches and pains, all the countless hours of medical professionals time and patience, all of the testing and lab work, all of the expense involved in pacifying her hypochondria, is all covered under Obamacare, and she doesn't have to pay a dime for it anymore.... it's all on us!

As you said regardless of whether it’s a clinical illness of just craving attention it means she is ill. Disease. Dis-ease.

There's more to being a doctor than fixing broken bones or removing an inflamed appendix. A doctor is responsible for the complete health of an individual and that includes mental health.

It's good you know so much about what it takes to be one, because you will probably be recruited sooner or later. About half of your practicing physicians are planning to quit in the next few years, and with millions of new patients like Miss Emma coming into the system, we are going to need every able minded person to help out!

More BS. Just like that Rush nut, right wing, idiot who said he was leaving the US if the health care act passed. Sorry, but too many doctors are greedy. They won’t quit. Don’t worry about it.

In our mobile society people lose contact with friends and family. People have less contact with spiritual leaders. Primary care physicians can recommend more than pills. They can suggest groups/organizations for the patient to check out. The interaction with others often results in the distraction from "real" pain not to mention psychosomatic illnesses. You have to examine your ideas concerning the role doctors play. It's all about change.

Why can't they just prescribe pills? Doesn't matter if they aren't getting paid... prescribe a pill or sit and explain options about different groups to the patient? Seems easier for them to prescribe a pill... takes a second compared to 30 minutes... time is money! They have patients to see... Miss Emma is waiting!

That can be changed. Doctors can be rewarded for counseling patients and noting they are not returning with the same complaint. That's where computerized medical records enter the scene.

And then we come to Victor. What would be your solution?

My solution would be to send YOU to Victors house to give him sponge baths and change his bedpans... dress his oozing sores... and make him as comfortable as possible in his dying days. Because you are concerned with him, you want him to be taken care of, and I know you would love to be able to do that... so this would be my solution! I think it beats the shit outta me paying 36% of my income while trying to send my kids to college.

Your empathy is heartwarming.

 

[WinterBorn]

My solution would be to send YOU to Victors house to give him sponge baths and change his bedpans... dress his oozing sores... and make him as comfortable as possible in his dying days. Because you are concerned with him, you want him to be taken care of, and I know you would love to be able to do that... so this would be my solution!

This legislation is bullshit and should never have passed.

But I found one thing that makes me almost glad it did pass. And that is your post, Dixie.

Nice to see that loving, christian compassion. You are bitching about a boost in your taxes and not giving two shits about the people who are suffering.

Reread the passages in the bible about Jesus healing the lepers. Did he do this so he and his apostles could have a few extra shekels? Or was it the compassion he felt?

I have done volunteer work with terminally ill patients, including those in the final stages of the devastation of AIDS. It is not a pretty sight. But don't come in here ranting about them and basically writing them off to save you a few thousand dollars.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Replies in blue.

(Post #4)

Sure they do, and most of them have whatever insurance they feel like they need, not that they really need that much medical care. So they would be poor "examples" ...the 26 year old who we are going to contribute 36% of our pay to, while trying to send our kids to college... that is the "example" that should have been trotted out. Let's hear his story... let's hear how you aren't going to make him change his sedentary lifestyle, you are merely going to provide him with free medical care at our expense.

How do you know he won’t change? The problem is he has a problem and until it’s rectified he won’t change.

I know he won't change now because there is absolutely no motivation for him to change. As it was, there was the possibility he could have realized his health and lack of health insurance due to a lack of a job, were an issue he needed to do something about. But now, he doesn't have to! Obamacare takes care of his every medical need, and he is free to remain the same! Obamacare didn't "fix" his problem, it "facilitates" it! ...and at our expense!

Oh she's not trapped, she's bored. Stuck where she is without any mental stimulation and seeking happiness through chemical dependency, and now she will have her drugs fully provided for at taxpayer expense. Let's hear her story, how you are not going to do anything to make her change her lifestyle, you are just going to fund her prescription drug habit with MY tax dollars.

Really? Doctors are going to prescribe drugs equivalent to the strength/effect of street drugs when people in pain have a problem getting decent pain meds? Wrong guess.

Some doctors are going to prescribe whatever anti-depressant they can, to pacify the neurotic patient and get them out of their office. Obamacare didn't mandate that the doctor go to any and all lengths to determine the root cause of every problem! It didn't even mention that! You seem to think Obamacare comes with a magic feather up the ass of doctors, which suddenly makes them care more about diagnosing root causes and stuff... but no such feather is found in the bill. Doctors will behave no differently. If your kid acts up, they are ADHD and have to be put on Ritalin, if the little missus has a problem coping with life, get her addicted to Prozac! Why not? It's FREE now!

Emma is a Hypochondriac. It is a clinical mental illness, not "craving attention" ...but regardless, all of her assorted aches and pains, all the countless hours of medical professionals time and patience, all of the testing and lab work, all of the expense involved in pacifying her hypochondria, is all covered under Obamacare, and she doesn't have to pay a dime for it anymore.... it's all on us!

As you said regardless of whether it’s a clinical illness of just craving attention it means she is ill. Disease. Dis-ease.

Right, it's a disease that causes the victim to perpetually occupy the time of health care professionals at great cost. There is no provision in Obamacare to prevent these people from doing just that. In fact, regardless of how many insurance companies have become wise to the problem and refuse to accept this person, the government mandates they insure her now.

It's good you know so much about what it takes to be one, because you will probably be recruited sooner or later. About half of your practicing physicians are planning to quit in the next few years, and with millions of new patients like Miss Emma coming into the system, we are going to need every able minded person to help out!

More BS. Just like that Rush nut, right wing, idiot who said he was leaving the US if the health care act passed. Sorry, but too many doctors are greedy. They won’t quit. Don’t worry about it.

Rush never said that. And doctors have already been surveyed, by a reputable source, and 47% said they will leave the practice if Obamacare passed. Now maybe not all 47% will leave... maybe it's only 10%, but this will come at a time when you are adding an additional 20-30 million "examples" to the waiting line for a doctor. You're smart enough to figure this out.

Then, some doctors WILL stay in the practice, only they will do as some are already doing, and they will no longer accept insurance. Cash only! Yes, they are already doing this... citing that they want to provide their patients with the best care, and they can't do this with the governmental/insurance mandates and guidelines required.

Why can't they just prescribe pills? Doesn't matter if they aren't getting paid... prescribe a pill or sit and explain options about different groups to the patient? Seems easier for them to prescribe a pill... takes a second compared to 30 minutes... time is money! They have patients to see... Miss Emma is waiting!

That can be changed. Doctors can be rewarded for counseling patients and noting they are not returning with the same complaint. That's where computerized medical records enter the scene.

So now you want government to "reward" doctors for performing their service as government sees fit, in a cookie-cutter manner, without regard for any other mitigating factor? Nice! That should work out really well! Tell me, would this also apply to abortions? Would the doctor be rewarded for counseling their patient into not murdering their baby? You know, I do believe, if we are going to allow the federal government to intervene in this process, that is certainly a "tweak" some future right-wing Congress can mandate. You've allowed that! You've kicked down the door.... remember?

My solution would be to send YOU to Victors house to give him sponge baths and change his bedpans... dress his oozing sores... and make him as comfortable as possible in his dying days. Because you are concerned with him, you want him to be taken care of, and I know you would love to be able to do that... so this would be my solution! I think it beats the shit outta me paying 36% of my income while trying to send my kids to college.

Your empathy is heartwarming.

I'm glad you think so! I do feel sorry for Vic, he got dealt a bum hand... but let's face some reality here... Vic is dying of AIDS, he will not live or survive. There are about 300,000-400,000 reported cases like Victor... each one will require treatments costing $10k per week, just to maintain a functional life. This is not including the thousands of dollars needed to treat all the assorted side-effects of the disease AND the treatments as well... this will get costly, and now insurance companies have to absorb that cost at our expense. All of this, for people who we know are going to die from the disease eventually. I mean, I don't mean to sound dis-compassionate, but should we really consider mortgaging our children's future to keep someone on life support? You didn't feel this way about Terri Schiavo, and that didn't cost us one red cent! Where is there some fundamental difference? Schiavo had a condition, an AIDS patient has a terminal disease.

 

[apple0154]

I know he won't change now because there is absolutely no motivation for him to change. As it was, there was the possibility he could have realized his health and lack of health insurance due to a lack of a job, were an issue he needed to do something about. But now, he doesn't have to! Obamacare takes care of his every medical need, and he is free to remain the same! Obamacare didn't "fix" his problem, it "facilitates" it! ...and at our expense!

Surely you're not suggesting a person who is chronically unemployed is going to get a job because they need health insurance? If they aren't motivated enough to work to pay the rent and food and a hot Saturday night date health insurance is not going to motivate them.

Some doctors are going to prescribe whatever anti-depressant they can, to pacify the neurotic patient and get them out of their office. Obamacare didn't mandate that the doctor go to any and all lengths to determine the root cause of every problem! It didn't even mention that! You seem to think Obamacare comes with a magic feather up the ass of doctors, which suddenly makes them care more about diagnosing root causes and stuff... but no such feather is found in the bill. Doctors will behave no differently. If your kid acts up, they are ADHD and have to be put on Ritalin, if the little missus has a problem coping with life, get her addicted to Prozac! Why not? It's FREE now!

It sounded like you were talking about "drugs" when you said her husband was dealing. Something that could be sold. Is Prozac sold on the street?

Right, it's a disease that causes the victim to perpetually occupy the time of health care professionals at great cost. There is no provision in Obamacare to prevent these people from doing just that. In fact, regardless of how many insurance companies have become wise to the problem and refuse to accept this person, the government mandates they insure her now.

If a person complains tests are done and things ruled out. If the person switches doctors computerized medical records are easily accessed so the doctor knows what tests have been performed.

It's the same as when people try to sue when involved in an accident. Doctors find out if there is really any damage.

Rush never said that. And doctors have already been surveyed, by a reputable source, and 47% said they will leave the practice if Obamacare passed. Now maybe not all 47% will leave... maybe it's only 10%, but this will come at a time when you are adding an additional 20-30 million "examples" to the waiting line for a doctor. You're smart enough to figure this out.

Then, some doctors WILL stay in the practice, only they will do as some are already doing, and they will no longer accept insurance. Cash only! Yes, they are already doing this... citing that they want to provide their patients with the best care, and they can't do this with the governmental/insurance mandates and guidelines required.

We have to remember this bill is a start towards universal care. As more and more people come under the guidelines/programs the doctors will have to decide if they want patients or not. The same has happened in other countries. Less and less people will be paying cash.

Other countries with universal plans face the same problem. Some doctors want to "free lance" and charge what they want but when times are slow they want to be able to treat government insured patients. That argument isn't going over very well. Either they accept government insured patients or they don't get any referrals. That's what will eventually happen.

When it comes to being smart enough regarding doctors leaving other countries have had medical plans for 50 years and they still have doctors. Maybe a different type of person has decided to become a doctor? Maybe someone interested in helping people and not just lining their own pocket?

So now you want government to "reward" doctors for performing their service as government sees fit, in a cookie-cutter manner, without regard for any other mitigating factor? Nice! That should work out really well! Tell me, would this also apply to abortions? Would the doctor be rewarded for counseling their patient into not murdering their baby? You know, I do believe, if we are going to allow the federal government to intervene in this process, that is certainly a "tweak" some future right-wing Congress can mandate. You've allowed that! You've kicked down the door.... remember?

You always take a negative stance. Let me give you an example. Let's say a patient is a smoker. If the doctor can convince the person to stop smoking they should receive some kind of appreciation/reward. Or if the patient is obese and the doctor works with the patient to get them in better shape that saves everyone money and, of course, improves the person's health. What can you possibly find negative about that?

I'm glad you think so! I do feel sorry for Vic, he got dealt a bum hand... but let's face some reality here... Vic is dying of AIDS, he will not live or survive. There are about 300,000-400,000 reported cases like Victor... each one will require treatments costing $10k per week, just to maintain a functional life. This is not including the thousands of dollars needed to treat all the assorted side-effects of the disease AND the treatments as well... this will get costly, and now insurance companies have to absorb that cost at our expense. All of this, for people who we know are going to die from the disease eventually. I mean, I don't mean to sound dis-compassionate, but should we really consider mortgaging our children's future to keep someone on life support? You didn't feel this way about Terri Schiavo, and that didn't cost us one red cent! Where is there some fundamental difference? Schiavo had a condition, an AIDS patient has a terminal disease.

You mean it didn't cost you one red cent. Someone paid for Schiavo's medical care. Some doctors and even one politician, who was also a doctor, lied about Schiavo's case as was determined at autopsy. Obviously that guy was as good a politician as he was a doctor.

As for keeping someone on life support everyone should be obliged to have a "living will". With computerized medical records the wishes of the patient can be easily accessed and determined. A Schiavo case need never be repeated.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Surely you're not suggesting a person who is chronically unemployed is going to get a job because they need health insurance? If they aren't motivated enough to work to pay the rent and food and a hot Saturday night date health insurance is not going to motivate them.

I am suggesting there are two possibilities, he either gets off his ass, goes to work and buys insurance like everyone else, or he doesn't. With Obamacare providing him FREE insurance, what could his possible motivation be for doing it himself?

It sounded like you were talking about "drugs" when you said her husband was dealing. Something that could be sold. Is Prozac sold on the street?

No, my example, the woman was just a bored housewife who spends most of her day engulfed in confrontational reality TV shows, and is so mentally frazzled by it, she needs Prozac to cope with her life. But you raise ANOTHER good example... Did you realize, a doctor has no discernible way to tell if you are actually experiencing back pain? If you SAY you are, they pretty much have to take your word for it, and the only thing they can really do for chronic back pain is prescribe pain pills... those pain pills are very valuable on the black market, and now, they cost the supplier virtually nothing, because Obamacare will ensure they get them for free... at our expense, of course.

If a person complains tests are done and things ruled out. If the person switches doctors computerized medical records are easily accessed so the doctor knows what tests have been performed.

When they have done all the tests and "ruled out" all the things, what will they do then? My guess is, they will start doing the same tests over again, because they obviously missed something before. I don't understand you, it seems you just prattle on about something without having a clue what you're talking about or trying to say. A real hypochondriac will have doctors and medical technicians running in circles, taking up their precious time, which could be devoted to actually treating other patients who are legitimately sick. This will happen all over America, as there is not a damn thing in Obamacare to safeguard against it.

We have to remember this bill is a start towards universal care. As more and more people come under the guidelines/programs the doctors will have to decide if they want patients or not. The same has happened in other countries. Less and less people will be paying cash.

We have to remember this is AMERICA and not some Socialist European country mired in 19th Century medical technology.

Other countries with universal plans face the same problem. Some doctors want to "free lance" and charge what they want but when times are slow they want to be able to treat government insured patients. That argument isn't going over very well. Either they accept government insured patients or they don't get any referrals. That's what will eventually happen.

No, there will be a lot of "free lance" doctors, who refuse to accept ANY medical insurance, and there will be plenty of wealthy patients who will pay them out of pocket to provide quality medical care.

When it comes to being smart enough regarding doctors leaving other countries have had medical plans for 50 years and they still have doctors. Maybe a different type of person has decided to become a doctor? Maybe someone interested in helping people and not just lining their own pocket?

Yeah, maybe... but maybe not! We aren't another country, this is America, a different place than Europe! Maybe one day that will penetrate your hollow head? We can only hope!

You always take a negative stance. Let me give you an example. Let's say a patient is a smoker. If the doctor can convince the person to stop smoking they should receive some kind of appreciation/reward. Or if the patient is obese and the doctor works with the patient to get them in better shape that saves everyone money and, of course, improves the person's health. What can you possibly find negative about that?

Like I said, it's a matter of money. Doctors have a limited number of hours in the day, and they will inherently do whatever generates the most money for them. Sounds like you want to 'sweeten their pot' with rewards... based on what, exactly? So they give some fat ass a brochure on losing weight? We are going to give a doctor an extra $100 for that, or what? The doctor has no way of knowing or telling if the patient is following the advice given, and frankly, that isn't their problem.

Again, you have concocted some idiotic idea of how things will be in your Perfect World, but the real world is not Utopia, things don't happen like you want them to, people don't behave the way you wish they would. I'm not being negative by pointing this out, I am being realistic and pragmatic.

You mean it didn't cost you one red cent. Someone paid for Schiavo's medical care. Some doctors and even one politician, who was also a doctor, lied about Schiavo's case as was determined at autopsy. Obviously that guy was as good a politician as he was a doctor.

As for keeping someone on life support everyone should be obliged to have a "living will". With computerized medical records the wishes of the patient can be easily accessed and determined. A Schiavo case need never be repeated.

Taxpayers didn't pay for Schiavo's care, her parents did, and were willing to continue doing so. No one lied about any goddamn thing, you people turned it into a national issue with your fascination with death and killing the innocent, and you literally starved the woman to death because she had a unrecoverable condition. AIDS patients also have an unrecoverable condition, but you want to keep them alive at taxpayer expense for as long as possible... Why is that? Is it because Schiavo took a shot to the head from her asshole wife-beating husband and the gay guy just had butt sex? I'm not understanding the difference there.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

With computerized medical records the wishes of the patient can be easily accessed and determined. A Schiavo case need never be repeated.

Why don't we just tattoo our Social Security number on our foreheads and embed a bar code in our necks? Maybe even surgically implant a GPS chip in our body, so government can monitor our every move.... make sure we are doing those push-ups the doc is getting a 'reward' for suggesting? To make sure people have stopped smoking as the doctor recommended, and is getting paid extra to make happen... we have to have some way to verify this stuff, and that seems the best possible way, we have the technology, shouldn't we use it?

 

[Minister of Truth]

Jesus could come back and run as a democrat and you teabaggers would spit on him and call him a lazy long haired socialist.

He wouldn't, though, because He's a devout religious man, and opposes abortion.

 

[apple0154]

(Msg #11)

I am suggesting there are two possibilities, he either gets off his ass, goes to work and buys insurance like everyone else, or he doesn't. With Obamacare providing him FREE insurance, what could his possible motivation be for doing it himself?

My goodness. You are thick-headed. Try to understand there is a reason he is not motivated. A reason. As I said before if he isn't motivated to get a job and get his own place and buy things and have a girlfriend/boyfriend and do all the other things a normal 26 year old does the last thing he will worry about is medical insurance.

Chances are his health will slowly decline until he requires emergency treatment. Maybe diabetes if he eats junk food and doesn't exercise. Welfare and hospitalization. Are we saving money that way or is it better for him to see a doctor and at least have a doctor talk with him?

No, my example, the woman was just a bored housewife who spends most of her day engulfed in confrontational reality TV shows, and is so mentally frazzled by it, she needs Prozac to cope with her life. But you raise ANOTHER good example... Did you realize, a doctor has no discernible way to tell if you are actually experiencing back pain? If you SAY you are, they pretty much have to take your word for it, and the only thing they can really do for chronic back pain is prescribe pain pills... those pain pills are very valuable on the black market, and now, they cost the supplier virtually nothing, because Obamacare will ensure they get them for free... at our expense, of course.

If you know anything about chronic pain it is not easy to get pain medication and while a doctor can not measure the exact pain they can get a good idea if someone is in pain.

When they have done all the tests and "ruled out" all the things, what will they do then? My guess is, they will start doing the same tests over again, because they obviously missed something before. I don't understand you, it seems you just prattle on about something without having a clue what you're talking about or trying to say. A real hypochondriac will have doctors and medical technicians running in circles, taking up their precious time, which could be devoted to actually treating other patients who are legitimately sick. This will happen all over America, as there is not a damn thing in Obamacare to safeguard against it.

As I said before there are doctors who can determine with a fair amount of accuracy if a person is in pain. Many doctors will not prescribe pain medication because of possible repercussions. Simply stated, there are more people in pain doing without medication than there are those who are getting medication fraudulently. Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

We have to remember this is AMERICA and not some Socialist European country mired in 19th Century medical technology.

Yeah, maybe... but maybe not! We aren't another country, this is America, a different place than Europe! Maybe one day that will penetrate your hollow head? We can only hope!

Where do you think American people came from? Some other planet? Are they aliens on planet earth?

Whether or not you realize it Americans are human beings just like the rest of the human beings on this planet. And the rest of the human beings on this planet, once their government implemented a universal medical plan, fought like hell to keep it! And that's exactly what's going to happen in the US. Put that in your hollow head.

It’s not just Europe. Australia isn’t a European country nor is Canada nor is Cuba nor is Brazil nor is Greenland. The list goes on and on.

It's no wonder the Tea Baggers and Right Wing and Conservatives are upset. They're fighting a losing battle. Look around the world. Obama said change is coming and it is coming. Get used to it.

Like I said, it's a matter of money. Doctors have a limited number of hours in the day, and they will inherently do whatever generates the most money for them. Sounds like you want to 'sweeten their pot' with rewards... based on what, exactly? So they give some fat ass a brochure on losing weight? We are going to give a doctor an extra $100 for that, or what? The doctor has no way of knowing or telling if the patient is following the advice given, and frankly, that isn't their problem.

Again, you have concocted some idiotic idea of how things will be in your Perfect World, but the real world is not Utopia, things don't happen like you want them to, people don't behave the way you wish they would. I'm not being negative by pointing this out, I am being realistic and pragmatic.

Things do work the way I said. Let’s say a doctor’s diagnosis of an overweight patient shows they have border line diabetes. The doctor discusses weight loss and diet. Three months later the patient returns. The doctor weights the patient and has a blood test done. He discovers the patient has lost weight and their blood sugar has come down.

Or a patient who smokes. Or a patient who loses weight and exercises and lowers their blood pressure. Of course a doctor can tell.

Think of the savings. A few doctor’s visits and a few blood tests compared to loss of eyesight or amputation of limbs or a stroke. Who is going to pay for the person who can’t work anymore? Who will pay their welfare and medical expenses?

Taxpayers didn't pay for Schiavo's care, her parents did, and were willing to continue doing so. No one lied about any goddamn thing, you people turned it into a national issue with your fascination with death and killing the innocent, and you literally starved the woman to death because she had a unrecoverable condition. AIDS patients also have an unrecoverable condition, but you want to keep them alive at taxpayer expense for as long as possible... Why is that? Is it because Schiavo took a shot to the head from her asshole wife-beating husband and the gay guy just had butt sex? I'm not understanding the difference there.

One politician gave a diagnosis without even having seen her. The fool! When the autopsy was done it was discovered part of her brain was liquefied.

As for her husband hitting her you’re just making up stories. There was no such proof of anything like that.
It shows how absurd your position is when you have to make up deliberate lies trying to support it. Grow up!

 

[apple0154]

Why don't we just tattoo our Social Security number on our foreheads and embed a bar code in our necks? Maybe even surgically implant a GPS chip in our body, so government can monitor our every move.... make sure we are doing those push-ups the doc is getting a 'reward' for suggesting? To make sure people have stopped smoking as the doctor recommended, and is getting paid extra to make happen... we have to have some way to verify this stuff, and that seems the best possible way, we have the technology, shouldn't we use it?

Once again, you confuse the right of a person to obtain medical care with the absurd idea something is being forced on someone. What country with a universal plan forces people to have doctor's visits?

You're a looney toon. A basket case. You make no sense, at all.

 

[Cypress]

What I want to see, are the other "examples" ....the ones they failed to trot out!

I don't know what kind of conservative, care-free, magical life you've led.


I had an ex-girlfriend who couldn't get insurance on the free market because she had a pre-existing condition. And I've got a 22 year old on my health benefits policy who was set to get kicked off it this year when he turned 23.....but, now I'm going to be able keep him on it.

So that's two examples from my personal life that either could have, or will benefit from these reforms.

Cheers to you on having a care free and trouble-free life.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

As for keeping someone on life support everyone should be obliged to have a "living will". With computerized medical records the wishes of the patient can be easily accessed and determined. A Schiavo case need never be repeated.

so now you're advocating the removal of responsibility of the spouse?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

(Msg #11)

My goodness. You are thick-headed. Try to understand there is a reason he is not motivated. A reason. As I said before if he isn't motivated to get a job and get his own place and buy things and have a girlfriend/boyfriend and do all the other things a normal 26 year old does the last thing he will worry about is medical insurance.

Chances are his health will slowly decline until he requires emergency treatment. Maybe diabetes if he eats junk food and doesn't exercise. Welfare and hospitalization. Are we saving money that way or is it better for him to see a doctor and at least have a doctor talk with him?

I think it's better if you keep your fucking hand out of MY pocket to enable his dependency, and let me worry about my OWN family and THEIR needs. I don't give a damn about the "reasons" he has the problems, it's not my business!

If you know anything about chronic pain it is not easy to get pain medication and while a doctor can not measure the exact pain they can get a good idea if someone is in pain.

As I said before there are doctors who can determine with a fair amount of accuracy if a person is in pain. Many doctors will not prescribe pain medication because of possible repercussions. Simply stated, there are more people in pain doing without medication than there are those who are getting medication fraudulently. Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

You are full of shit, I do indeed know what I am talking about. I suffer from chronic back pain. It took me 6 years and 4 doctors before I finally discovered I had two ruptured disks. Before that diagnosis, you wanna know what they did? Prescribed pain pills and muscle relaxers. Now, I am the kind of person who just doesn't like taking medication of any kind, I won't even take a Tylenol unless I am really hurting. But I kept getting these prescriptions, and funny thing, a co-worker I knew at the time, was VERY interested in those! Seems the 'street value' of Oxycontin is very high. So don't tell me this doesn't happen, I am not as naive as you are about it, I actually have 'real world' experience with this.

Where do you think American people came from? Some other planet? Are they aliens on planet earth?

Whether or not you realize it Americans are human beings just like the rest of the human beings on this planet. And the rest of the human beings on this planet, once their government implemented a universal medical plan, fought like hell to keep it! And that's exactly what's going to happen in the US. Put that in your hollow head.

I think American people are VERY different from the rest of the world, we embrace FREEDOM and LIBERTY... we are defiantly INDEPENDENT... not CO-DEPENDENT! European Socialists are accustomed to sacrificing their freedoms to government, letting government take care of them, ceding their power to the government because they don't value freedom like we do. If you prefer that, you should move there!

Let me tell you what's about to happen.... Obama will be a one-term president who will go down in history as a monumental failure, and this massive government entitlement program will be rescinded in 2013 by a majority Republican congress and president. Proof that we are not like Europeans, we will fight like hell to get rid of this monstrosity. As for this idea you keep 'floating' about computerizing everyone's medical records and giving the government total access... that will happen with me when they put a tag on my toe and slide me into a drawer on a slab, because as long as I have a breath left in my body, I will refuse to participate. I'll fucking bet you money I am not the only American who feels that way about it. It continues to amaze me, the very same socialist idiots who railed and railed about government not having a place in a woman's womb, now feel it is imperative we allow government in our wombs, our colons, our liver, our kidneys... and every other aspect of our health and medical history!

It’s not just Europe. Australia isn’t a European country nor is Canada nor is Cuba nor is Brazil nor is Greenland. The list goes on and on.

In ever example you can cite, of European-style Socialized Medicine, the system is failing on every level. It is NOT providing better quality, it is NOT cheaper, it is NOT more accessible, and it is driving the government into bankruptcy. In almost every instance, they have had to go in and re-introduce capitalist measures, in order to try and shore up the system. I know it is kind of embarrassing to admit your socialist system is failing, and has to rely on capitalism, because that wasn't how you envisioned it to work, and maybe that is why none of you ever mention this when you are trotting out these examples?

It's no wonder the Tea Baggers and Right Wing and Conservatives are upset. They're fighting a losing battle. Look around the world. Obama said change is coming and it is coming. Get used to it.

Oh he delivered on "change" that's for sure... He has fundamentally changed how mainstream America views the left, and has sparked a vibrant opposition against his socialist communist agenda. The battle hasn't even begun yet, fucktard... just wait until the November bloodbath at the polls, when socialists are sent packing and heading for the hills. Then you're going to get used to being our BITCH! BITCH!

Things do work the way I said. Let’s say a doctor’s diagnosis of an overweight patient shows they have border line diabetes. The doctor discusses weight loss and diet. Three months later the patient returns. The doctor weights the patient and has a blood test done. He discovers the patient has lost weight and their blood sugar has come down.

No, things don't work the way you say except within your pathetically stupid head! You've introduced another one of your uninformed bird-brain socialist ideas, which can't be administered or regulated in any real way in the real world. What if the patient's weight is the same, and his blood sugar hasn't gone down... does the doc not get his bonus? It's not really HIS fault is it? He invested the time to "talk to" the patient, he doesn't control what the patient does. And how are we supposed to monitor this? How are we supposed to administer the bonuses for doctors? Take their word for things? What criteria would we set... you have to lose at least 1 pound per month... if your blood sugar only drops by a fraction, does the doc get his bonus?

What you've done, is thrown out another emotion-driven idea that you have no way of even knowing how to implement! You are just blathering on and on, like you have all the fucking answers, and you are a fucking moron!

Or a patient who smokes. Or a patient who loses weight and exercises and lowers their blood pressure. Of course a doctor can tell.

No, a doctor can't really tell! He can ask me if I have been smoking... if I tell him "NO!" he has no way to prove I am lying! If he asks me have I been exercising, again... he depends upon me being honest with my answer! Just because my weight is up or my blood pressure, doesn't mean I didn't follow the docs advice! Maybe I have some other problem causing the problem... does the doctor get the benefit of the doubt on these cases, or is his 'bonus' solely dependent on a set of predefined 'results' you (the gov) would like to see?

Think of the savings. A few doctor’s visits and a few blood tests compared to loss of eyesight or amputation of limbs or a stroke. Who is going to pay for the person who can’t work anymore? Who will pay their welfare and medical expenses?

MEDI-FUCKING-CAID!

We've HAD a program for nearly 50 years, to deal with paying for medical care on people who can't afford medical care!

One politician gave a diagnosis without even having seen her. The fool! When the autopsy was done it was discovered part of her brain was liquefied.

As for her husband hitting her you’re just making up stories. There was no such proof of anything like that.
It shows how absurd your position is when you have to make up deliberate lies trying to support it. Grow up!

I'm not going to 're-argue' the Schiavo case with you. The point of me mentioning it, was in comparison to the gay man who is also suffering from a condition he will never recover from. It pisses me off that you Libtards will attempt to tug on our heart strings of compassion for some butt fucker who can't afford the high cost of maintaining his perverted lifestyle and spreading his disease to the rest of society, but when it comes to the Terri Schiavo's, you just didn't give a fuck about her or her parents, even though it didn't even involve a penny of your tax dollars. It's just a stunning contrast, in my opinion. A woman with PVS and a man with HIV, one is cared for in total by her parents at no cost to you, and the other is dependent upon 36% of my paycheck to stay alive, and that is the one we are supposed to feel compassion for! I'm sorry, I don't have compassion... he should have thought about it more before he stuck his dick in another man's ass, if you ask me.

 

[Damocles]

The part that I loved is that when their examples couldn't show up is because they were receiving care at no cost to themselves from sources other than government....

 

[apple0154]

so now you're advocating the removal of responsibility of the spouse?

Are you suggesting ones medical wishes be subject to their spouse's approval?