ZenMode
Well-known member
According to who?
Who gets into heaven
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
I don't think baptism is a requirement mentioned anywhere in the Bible
You're invoking an objective and universal standard of justice and righteousness, and you believe it exists.
Otherwise, justice and righteousness are just relative terms that depend on opinion and culture.
Freddy Figbottom
Was it me?
your mama.
ZenMode
Well-known member
Mark 16:16: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned".
Acts 2:38: Peter tells people to "Repent and be baptized... for the forgiveness of your sins".
1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you... as an appeal to God for a good conscience".
Maybe, but surely we can agree that eating shellfish and clothing with different materials is a pretty silly measurement.
Freddy Figbottom
Was it me?
it does exist.
its reciprocity and empathy, and cooperation.
the golden rule.
no. cooperation, peace and mutual gain is clearly different that division, war, and loss.
that's the golden rule.
high trust societies always need something like the golden rule.
the golden rule makes Christianity, not baptism.
You're right about those quotes, but it's an open question in Christianity if baptism is necessary for salvation. Some babies die before they are baptized, and some churches only practice adult baptism. Some people convert on their death bed.
Belief in the death, resurrection, and saving grace of Christ is the minimum to be a Christian.
The ritual, civil, ceremonial, cleanliness, and sacrificial laws of Moses are not moral laws and do not mark one out as a righteous person. They mark one out as a culturally Torah-observant Jew.
So what objective universal standard of morality were you smuggling into your worldview to define who deserves spiritual liberation?
ZenMode
Well-known member
Sure. People often marginalize things in the Bible they don't want to believe because it doesn't "feel" right or doesn't make sensem
Eating shellfish and wearing clothing made of two different fabrics is a sin according to the Bible. You don't think suns are a statement about what is or isn't moral?
I don't have one, I'm just saying that Bible could be a lot more useful if it made more sense. I mean, killing your neighbor for working on Saturday, killing your new wife if she's not a virgin and killing people for witchcraft all seem a little Unconstructive, don't they?
Christians have never been required to follow the ritual and ceremonial laws of Torah. If you hate the ceremonial laws of Torah, find a Jewish neighbor or friend to harangue about it. Those aren't laws about morality. Nobody on the planet today think a clothing fabric makes you righteous.
So even though you clearly insinuated there is an objective and universal standard of righteousness people should be judged on, you are repeatedly refusing to say what this standard is, or from where you are smuggling it into your worldview.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Culture and religious traditions are one thing, but what I find most disgusting are the hypocrites; the self-labeled Christian who cherry-picks the Bible about homosexuals while munching on a pulled-pork BBQ sandwich with his mistress while his wife watches the kids at home and refuses to help his mother-in-law pay her electric bill saying "That God damn bitch should have planned ahead better!".
Yes! Like cherry picking a couple isolated statements about homosexuality, but then basically ignoring the entire Sermon on the Mount and the golden rule.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Absolutely. Every single MAGAt is a Christian in name, but never in actions.
ZenMode
Well-known member
Depends on which Christian you ask. I bet 90+% of Christians are circumcized.
God, not me, labeled certain fabric combinations a sin and working on certain days punishable by death and eating certain sea creatures a sin. By doing that, God, the same God Christians worship, is declaring those actions to be immoral....hence being a sin.
According to Christiana, God is the objective standard for righteousness and morality.... except when he's not, like when his rules for righteousness and morality become morally untenable....and punishable with lengthy prison terms.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Maybe around the world, but in the US, over 50% are circumcised as a medical, not religious procedure. Since most are Christians, it follows their numbers follow the trend.
Products - Health E Stats - Trends in Circumcision Among Male Newborns Born in U.S. Hospitals: 1979–2010
Recent Trends in Births and Fertility Rates through December 2011
www.cdc.gov
However, rates fluctuated during this period, generally declining during the 1980s, rising in the 1990s, and declining again in the early years of the 21st century. These changes occurred during a period of changing guidance on routine newborn circumcision. For example, American Academy of Pediatrics’ (AAP) task force reports during the 1970s (1,2) stated there was no medical indication for routine circumcision of the newborn; AAP revised its position in 1989 (3), stating there were potential medical benefits to newborn circumcision; and then in 1999 (4), an AAP policy statement said that, despite potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision, there was insufficient evidence to recommend routine circumcision of newborns.
You're clinging to a straw man.
The ceremonial, dietary, ritual cleanliness, civil laws Moses established in the Torah were for the Israelites living in an ancient Jewish theocracy.
They weren't intended for anyone else.
There aren't any normal Christians today who believe those ritual laws of Moses make a person righteous.
Leave God and Christians out of it. You yourself declared that righteous people are the ones who deserve any kind of salvation, irrespective of religious affiliation. What is this universal objective standard of moral righteousness you're pointing at to justify this statement?
ZenMode
Well-known member
Right because, again, Christians pick and choose which of God's rules they want to follow.
For a long time, homosexuality was a HUGE sin in Christianity, but even that "rule" is being ignored more and more and it's not because the Bible chang d or God changed his mind, it's because Christians rationalize not following rules they don't like.
In the New testament, Paul's letter to the Corinthians condemns homosexuality. Well, I'm not a Corinthian so should I, If I were a Christian, just ignore what Paul said?
THE universal standard, or at least the single most fundamental requirement, is believing in God. But, Christians have even found a way to rationalize that rules away.
I don't think atheists make good theologians or are able to tell Christians what to believe.
Why is it that only Christian fundamentalists and atheists turn out to be the most strict biblical literalists on the planet?
Do you conveniently embrace strict fundamentalist biblical liberalism because your beliefs and worldview need to be supported by strawmen?
No, you said salvation should occur for all righteous people irrespective of religion. You can't pull the God card out now.
What is this universal objective moral standard you are pointing to when you stated there is a class of people among all humans who meet the threshold of righteous and just?
