uscitizen
Villified User
and rumor has it the leaders of Iraq and Afganistan are not in good favor with Bush as well.
Who said this?
- Thread starter Beefy
- Start date
and rumor has it the leaders of Iraq and Afganistan are not in good favor with Bush as well.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
I'm a very open-minded person, I argue with closed-minded bigots here, everyday! When it comes to how governments and nations operate best, I believe it is through democracy and freedom, and I believe the evidence proves me correct. I can't ignore what I know to be the truth, and I don't think that makes me intolerant.
You continue to argue the Islamofascists case for them, and I don't really understand why, unless you just hate democracy and freedom and hope you can destroy it some day. You are one of the most intelligent people here, yet you will reel off some stupidity like: "In their view, we are the lost souls, and they are the ones that have found the right way. They believe this so deeply that many of them will blow themselves up to advance their belief system." They have not "found the right way" by resorting to terrorizing innocent people and killing tens of thousands in the name of their God! This has NEVER been the "right way" for ANY civilization, and it's not "the right way" now!
This radical element of Islam is a very small percentage of Muslims, who have perverted their religion, much as Maineman has perverted Christianity to make abortion okay, except that these people believe they must eliminate the Infidel and Jew from the face of the planet. The overwhelming and vast majority of Muslims are very meek and subservient, which is conducive with being peaceful and loving people, but it also breeds exploitation from others, and keeps them from standing up against the radical elements in their midst.
Democratization offers these people a chance, an opportunity to build something great, and marginalize the radicals. Not only is this in their best interest as well as our own, it is also our duty to help them establish it. Of course, it's not easy, nothing worthwhile ever is, but what we are trying to do, is the right thing for humanity, and it's something we are mandated to do as the leader of the free world. Democratization doesn't mean Americanization, the Arabs will have to develop their own brand of democracy, and it may not look exactly like our version, nor does it have to. The basic concept of allowing the people the power to control their destiny, is the key, and what must be established if we ever hope to have peace in that area of the world.
Do you realize, Iraq is the first Arab democracy in human history? It is the first attempt at trying to democratize the Arab world, that is amazingly profound to me, that in all of human history, this has never been attempted. Yes, there has been fighting in that region for centuries, but that doesn't mean we should just resign ourselves to accepting it and moving on. That doesn't mean that it always has to be like this, or that nothing can ever change it, because that is not the case.
Beefy
Worst gambler ever
Dixie, do you disagree with the statement that the radical islamist terrorists believe that they are right, and that Western ideas are wrong? I surely don't believe they've found the right way, to suggest such is to be intellectually dishonest. But when I form an opinion, I try to employ simple practicalities like the naked truth that they think they are right, and they think we are wrong. This, Dixie, is a given. It doesn't reflect that they are right, it simply means they believe they are right.
I think in addressing the situation in the ME, it is important to look at facts as facts. Sun Tzu knew a hell of a long time ago that in warfare, a key, fundamental element to being successful is to "know your emeny". Knowing the enemy, understanding the enemy will give you advantages. So that brings me to the next question: Who is our enemy? Answer: Radical Islamic Terrorists. Don't you think its important to understand about that enemy that they believe with all absolution that they are 100% right and we are 100% wrong? Don't you think that that information is useful?
We are not going to "Democratize" anybody, and it is not our job to do that. For democracy to be successful, it really must be organic. The sectarian civil war that is developing now comes from another long, long known little saying - "Power abhors a vacuum".
We created a vacuum in power over there, and we are seeing all the problems that come with it. Now we have a war that is totally unmanageable because of the indescribable lack of foresight and endless incompetence of the intelligensia that decided to start the war. And yes, the United States started this war, so I guess to a certain extent, its our baby, and we have to deal with that. The dilemma for us will be in leaving with 3,000 of our own dead and a Civil war raging, or if we leave with 25,000 or more of our own dead, and a Civil War raging.
That being said, the fledgling Democracy in Iraq is going to have to weather some pretty tough storms coming up. And like I stated earlier, it is going to have to be organic. But we still have a power vacuum because we disbanded their army and the current government can't stand on its own two feet. I hope it turns into a nifty little Democracy over there that thrive from its own natural resources, but it sure as shit isn't that now. As of now, it is a war torn set of 3 different countries with no stability and escalating violence.
Looking at it without partisan blinders can work wonders. Lokk at what IS Dix, not what you want to see, but what IS. When you do that, you'll see what a mess we've created over there.
Beefy
Worst gambler ever
Thank you Maine.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Dixie, do you disagree with the statement that the radical islamist terrorists believe that they are right, and that Western ideas are wrong? I surely don't believe they've found the right way, to suggest such is to be intellectually dishonest. But when I form an opinion, I try to employ simple practicalities like the naked truth that they think they are right, and they think we are wrong. This, Dixie, is a given. It doesn't reflect that they are right, it simply means they believe they are right.
They do not think they are right and we are wrong, they believe we are infidels who need to be wiped off the planet. They think they are right and the moderate Muslims are wrong. You need to pull your head out of your ass and understand this, because it's going to be your downfall, if you don't. This isn't some philosophical argument between our way of life and theirs, this is a radical fundamental Islamic group who has decided to eliminate all infidels and Jews from the planet, and someone has to stop them.
I think in addressing the situation in the ME, it is important to look at facts as facts. Sun Tzu knew a hell of a long time ago that in warfare, a key, fundamental element to being successful is to "know your emeny". Knowing the enemy, understanding the enemy will give you advantages. So that brings me to the next question: Who is our enemy? Answer: Radical Islamic Terrorists. Don't you think its important to understand about that enemy that they believe with all absolution that they are 100% right and we are 100% wrong? Don't you think that that information is useful?
I certainly do think this, which is why I say you need to pull your head out of your ass and understand our enemy. They are not interested in debating which ideology is right or wrong, they have no intention of debating, or having any sort of dialogue on the matter, with us, or anyone, as far as they are concerned, there is only one ideology.
We are not going to "Democratize" anybody, and it is not our job to do that. For democracy to be successful, it really must be organic. The sectarian civil war that is developing now comes from another long, long known little saying - "Power abhors a vacuum".
As I stated, WE can't do a damn thing! They are not interested in listening to US! They are not interested in Democracy, they are not interested in peace! They want us DEAD! ALL OF US! Do you understand that? The hope is, we can help Iraqi's (most of whom are not whacked out radicals) to form a democratic style government in an Arabic model, in the further hope it will result in a change over time. It's very important that IRAQI'S do this, and that we do everything we can to help them succeed.
We created a vacuum in power over there, and we are seeing all the problems that come with it. Now we have a war that is totally unmanageable because of the indescribable lack of foresight and endless incompetence of the intelligensia that decided to start the war. And yes, the United States started this war, so I guess to a certain extent, its our baby, and we have to deal with that. The dilemma for us will be in leaving with 3,000 of our own dead and a Civil war raging, or if we leave with 25,000 or more of our own dead, and a Civil War raging.
We didn't create a vacuum, if we abandon Iraq and allow the work done so far, to fail and collapse... THEN there will be a vacuum, and it won't be pretty!
That being said, the fledgling Democracy in Iraq is going to have to weather some pretty tough storms coming up. And like I stated earlier, it is going to have to be organic. But we still have a power vacuum because we disbanded their army and the current government can't stand on its own two feet. I hope it turns into a nifty little Democracy over there that thrive from its own natural resources, but it sure as shit isn't that now. As of now, it is a war torn set of 3 different countries with no stability and escalating violence.
I totally agree that it's going to be difficult for Iraq in the days to come. This is the fundamental and primary reason we should be doing every damn thing we can to help them! You better do more than HOPE it works, you better pray with all your might that it works, because if Iraq collapses to the radical Islamofascists, we are walking dead men. You can count your days, because the end will be near for us. This is not some chess game that will have no consequence if we lose, this is for all the marbles, and we simply can't afford to lose, and we can't afford to let the Iraqi's lose. I would LOVE for us to be able to "let them do it on their own" but we have far too much at stake, and I honestly don't trust people who were brutally oppressed for 30 years, to be able to withstand what lies ahead, with no outside assistance from us.
Looking at it without partisan blinders can work wonders. Lokk at what IS Dix, not what you want to see, but what IS. When you do that, you'll see what a mess we've created over there.
YOU are the one with partisan blinders, YOU and your little butt buddy Maine, who have NEVER supported our action in Iraq! WE didn't create a mess over there, and I don't believe you are so stupid as to not realize, the place was a fucked up total mess, YEARS before we ever went over there! You can't fuck up something that is already fucked up! Take a review of your history books, and tell me when that region last knew total peace? Hell yes, it's fucked up, hell yes it's a mess... WE DIDN'T MAKE THE MESS! We are the ones TRYING to clean the mess up!
I honestly don't understand how someone who knows so much about history, can buy this liberal bullshit rhetoric and overblown exaggeration, and not understand what is going on. That truly amazes me! It's like seeing that guy who won the all-time Jeopardy championship, watching WWF Smackdown! I don't know what to make of it, because you are far too intelligent to be gulping down the koolaid like you have on Iraq. Is it a "peace lover" thing? Do you just have a weak spot in your brain, or is there a soft spot in your skull? What is the explanation? Because it doesn't make sense, and it contradicts logic, that you would take the position you've taken regarding this war.
I agree, we have fucked up royally on some things, and we have paid a dear price for it, we've missed some opportunities, we've mismanaged certain aspects, but that doesn't mean we would be better served to abandon it all now, and let the place go up in flames. That would be the most stupid thing we could do at this point. You are smart enough to know this, yet you persist in arguing as if you are certain it's the right thing to do!
They do not think they are right and we are wrong, they believe we are infidels who need to be wiped off the planet. They think they are right and the moderate Muslims are wrong. You need to pull your head out of your ass and understand this, because it's going to be your downfall, if you don't. This isn't some philosophical argument between our way of life and theirs, this is a radical fundamental Islamic group who has decided to eliminate all infidels and Jews from the planet, and someone has to stop them.
I think in addressing the situation in the ME, it is important to look at facts as facts. Sun Tzu knew a hell of a long time ago that in warfare, a key, fundamental element to being successful is to "know your emeny". Knowing the enemy, understanding the enemy will give you advantages. So that brings me to the next question: Who is our enemy? Answer: Radical Islamic Terrorists. Don't you think its important to understand about that enemy that they believe with all absolution that they are 100% right and we are 100% wrong? Don't you think that that information is useful?
I certainly do think this, which is why I say you need to pull your head out of your ass and understand our enemy. They are not interested in debating which ideology is right or wrong, they have no intention of debating, or having any sort of dialogue on the matter, with us, or anyone, as far as they are concerned, there is only one ideology.
We are not going to "Democratize" anybody, and it is not our job to do that. For democracy to be successful, it really must be organic. The sectarian civil war that is developing now comes from another long, long known little saying - "Power abhors a vacuum".
As I stated, WE can't do a damn thing! They are not interested in listening to US! They are not interested in Democracy, they are not interested in peace! They want us DEAD! ALL OF US! Do you understand that? The hope is, we can help Iraqi's (most of whom are not whacked out radicals) to form a democratic style government in an Arabic model, in the further hope it will result in a change over time. It's very important that IRAQI'S do this, and that we do everything we can to help them succeed.
We created a vacuum in power over there, and we are seeing all the problems that come with it. Now we have a war that is totally unmanageable because of the indescribable lack of foresight and endless incompetence of the intelligensia that decided to start the war. And yes, the United States started this war, so I guess to a certain extent, its our baby, and we have to deal with that. The dilemma for us will be in leaving with 3,000 of our own dead and a Civil war raging, or if we leave with 25,000 or more of our own dead, and a Civil War raging.
We didn't create a vacuum, if we abandon Iraq and allow the work done so far, to fail and collapse... THEN there will be a vacuum, and it won't be pretty!
That being said, the fledgling Democracy in Iraq is going to have to weather some pretty tough storms coming up. And like I stated earlier, it is going to have to be organic. But we still have a power vacuum because we disbanded their army and the current government can't stand on its own two feet. I hope it turns into a nifty little Democracy over there that thrive from its own natural resources, but it sure as shit isn't that now. As of now, it is a war torn set of 3 different countries with no stability and escalating violence.
I totally agree that it's going to be difficult for Iraq in the days to come. This is the fundamental and primary reason we should be doing every damn thing we can to help them! You better do more than HOPE it works, you better pray with all your might that it works, because if Iraq collapses to the radical Islamofascists, we are walking dead men. You can count your days, because the end will be near for us. This is not some chess game that will have no consequence if we lose, this is for all the marbles, and we simply can't afford to lose, and we can't afford to let the Iraqi's lose. I would LOVE for us to be able to "let them do it on their own" but we have far too much at stake, and I honestly don't trust people who were brutally oppressed for 30 years, to be able to withstand what lies ahead, with no outside assistance from us.
Looking at it without partisan blinders can work wonders. Lokk at what IS Dix, not what you want to see, but what IS. When you do that, you'll see what a mess we've created over there.
YOU are the one with partisan blinders, YOU and your little butt buddy Maine, who have NEVER supported our action in Iraq! WE didn't create a mess over there, and I don't believe you are so stupid as to not realize, the place was a fucked up total mess, YEARS before we ever went over there! You can't fuck up something that is already fucked up! Take a review of your history books, and tell me when that region last knew total peace? Hell yes, it's fucked up, hell yes it's a mess... WE DIDN'T MAKE THE MESS! We are the ones TRYING to clean the mess up!
I honestly don't understand how someone who knows so much about history, can buy this liberal bullshit rhetoric and overblown exaggeration, and not understand what is going on. That truly amazes me! It's like seeing that guy who won the all-time Jeopardy championship, watching WWF Smackdown! I don't know what to make of it, because you are far too intelligent to be gulping down the koolaid like you have on Iraq. Is it a "peace lover" thing? Do you just have a weak spot in your brain, or is there a soft spot in your skull? What is the explanation? Because it doesn't make sense, and it contradicts logic, that you would take the position you've taken regarding this war.
I agree, we have fucked up royally on some things, and we have paid a dear price for it, we've missed some opportunities, we've mismanaged certain aspects, but that doesn't mean we would be better served to abandon it all now, and let the place go up in flames. That would be the most stupid thing we could do at this point. You are smart enough to know this, yet you persist in arguing as if you are certain it's the right thing to do!
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
Maine, who have NEVER supported our action in Iraq! WE didn't create a mess over there, and I don't believe you are so stupid as to not realize, the place was a fucked up total mess, YEARS before we ever went over there!
What you don't understand Dixie, is the schisms in Islamic society between Shia and Sunni.
Iraq has long since been held by strong, often brutal leaders for a reason. They acted as a sticking plaster over this schism.
When you consider the context of the battle against the myriad of Islamic extremist groups, lifting this sticking plaster and releasing Pandora's box is extremely ill advised.
We certainly caused the mess in the ME to escalate (as many said would happen beforehand.) We have caused this through bloody-minded dogmatism, believing absolutely that holding a ballot is a magic elixir for a societies ills.
The truth is, the Islamic problem is far, far more complex than people like the current admin recognise.
We are attempting a simplistic approach to a complex problem...
What you don't understand Dixie, is the schisms in Islamic society between Shia and Sunni.
Iraq has long since been held by strong, often brutal leaders for a reason. They acted as a sticking plaster over this schism.
When you consider the context of the battle against the myriad of Islamic extremist groups, lifting this sticking plaster and releasing Pandora's box is extremely ill advised.
We certainly caused the mess in the ME to escalate (as many said would happen beforehand.) We have caused this through bloody-minded dogmatism, believing absolutely that holding a ballot is a magic elixir for a societies ills.
The truth is, the Islamic problem is far, far more complex than people like the current admin recognise.
We are attempting a simplistic approach to a complex problem...
maineman
Banned
I supported the process delineated in the Clinton era ILA. The only time democracy has ever thrived on this planet is when it was internally fomented and totally organic.
I have never felt that shocking, awing, invading, conquering and occupying Iraq and attempting to cram Jeffersonian multi-ethnic democracy down their throats at the point of a gun would be a winning proposition....
and guess what? I was right.
I have never felt that shocking, awing, invading, conquering and occupying Iraq and attempting to cram Jeffersonian multi-ethnic democracy down their throats at the point of a gun would be a winning proposition....
and guess what? I was right.
Beefy
Worst gambler ever
First of all Dixie, try to remain calm. This isn't an international symposium here, its nothing to have a heart attack over. Breathe in "ohm", breathe out, "ohm".
They do not think they are right and we are wrong, they believe we are infidels who need to be wiped off the planet. They think they are right and the moderate Muslims are wrong. You need to pull your head out of your ass and understand this, because it's going to be your downfall, if you don't. This isn't some philosophical argument between our way of life and theirs, this is a radical fundamental Islamic group who has decided to eliminate all infidels and Jews from the planet, and someone has to stop them.
I never suggested that this was merely a philosophical discussion. Again you are being intellectually dishonest. Essentially on this point you are saying that they do not think they're right and we're wrong, they just think that they're right and we're wrong. I agree with the second part. Why you need to take both sides of the issue is beyond me. I'm merely suggesting that an important part of the planning end of this thing is knowing the enemy. I don't know why on earth you would be opposed to that.
I certainly do think this, which is why I say you need to pull your head out of your ass and understand our enemy. They are not interested in debating which ideology is right or wrong, they have no intention of debating, or having any sort of dialogue on the matter, with us, or anyone, as far as they are concerned, there is only one ideology.
Who are you arguing with here? Who suggested any of this drivel? What you're describing about would have been helpful little tidbit to take into account though prior to invasion don't you think? But we were too busy thinking about what we would do with all the flowers thrown at our feet.
As I stated, WE can't do a damn thing! They are not interested in listening to US! They are not interested in Democracy, they are not interested in peace! They want us DEAD! ALL OF US! Do you understand that? The hope is, we can help Iraqi's (most of whom are not whacked out radicals) to form a democratic style government in an Arabic model, in the further hope it will result in a change over time. It's very important that IRAQI'S do this, and that we do everything we can to help them succeed.
Maybe you and I have a different perspective here then. It seems to me that the best way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population, which we both know is where our only chance at victory lies, certainly was not to just blow all their shit up. We fucked up, we have created a mess over there. If you think the people of Iraq see us as "liberators", I want to see the flowers you were anticipating. If you think that the Iraqi people just love having us there, that we're the best thing to come along since schwarma, then you need to take off your Republican blinders.
I totally agree that it's going to be difficult for Iraq in the days to come. This is the fundamental and primary reason we should be doing every damn thing we can to help them! You better do more than HOPE it works, you better pray with all your might that it works, because if Iraq collapses to the radical Islamofascists, we are walking dead men. You can count your days, because the end will be near for us. This is not some chess game that will have no consequence if we lose, this is for all the marbles, and we simply can't afford to lose, and we can't afford to let the Iraqi's lose. I would LOVE for us to be able to "let them do it on their own" but we have far too much at stake, and I honestly don't trust people who were brutally oppressed for 30 years, to be able to withstand what lies ahead, with no outside assistance from us.
Again, this would have been a helpful little tidbit the realize before we went in. But knowing the enemy isn't all that important until we have a clusterfuck on our hands I guess.
YOU are the one with partisan blinders, YOU and your little butt buddy Maine, who have NEVER supported our action in Iraq!
Maine is not my butt buddy. The only butt buddy I've ever had was my ex-girlfriend, and she only let me in there once. December 7th, 1997, just passed the 9th anniversary, but I digress....
You are smart
Thank you.
I agree, we have fucked up royally on some things, and we have paid a dear price for it, we've missed some opportunities, we've mismanaged certain aspects, but that doesn't mean we would be better served to abandon it all now, and let the place go up in flames. That would be the most stupid thing we could do at this point. You are smart enough to know this, yet you persist in arguing as if you are certain it's the right thing to do!
I am not suggesting we simply pull up and leave 100% today. But you and your "stay the course" ilk have gotten a hell of a lot of people killed. You and your ilk are the reason for countless numbers of our guys coming home without hands and feet, arms, legs, eyes, the ability to walk..... We need new leadership on this and thankfully we are getting it to some degree. Why you want to just follow the bus off the cliff just to cling to your party is something I can't figure out.
They do not think they are right and we are wrong, they believe we are infidels who need to be wiped off the planet. They think they are right and the moderate Muslims are wrong. You need to pull your head out of your ass and understand this, because it's going to be your downfall, if you don't. This isn't some philosophical argument between our way of life and theirs, this is a radical fundamental Islamic group who has decided to eliminate all infidels and Jews from the planet, and someone has to stop them.
I never suggested that this was merely a philosophical discussion. Again you are being intellectually dishonest. Essentially on this point you are saying that they do not think they're right and we're wrong, they just think that they're right and we're wrong. I agree with the second part. Why you need to take both sides of the issue is beyond me. I'm merely suggesting that an important part of the planning end of this thing is knowing the enemy. I don't know why on earth you would be opposed to that.
I certainly do think this, which is why I say you need to pull your head out of your ass and understand our enemy. They are not interested in debating which ideology is right or wrong, they have no intention of debating, or having any sort of dialogue on the matter, with us, or anyone, as far as they are concerned, there is only one ideology.
Who are you arguing with here? Who suggested any of this drivel? What you're describing about would have been helpful little tidbit to take into account though prior to invasion don't you think? But we were too busy thinking about what we would do with all the flowers thrown at our feet.
As I stated, WE can't do a damn thing! They are not interested in listening to US! They are not interested in Democracy, they are not interested in peace! They want us DEAD! ALL OF US! Do you understand that? The hope is, we can help Iraqi's (most of whom are not whacked out radicals) to form a democratic style government in an Arabic model, in the further hope it will result in a change over time. It's very important that IRAQI'S do this, and that we do everything we can to help them succeed.
Maybe you and I have a different perspective here then. It seems to me that the best way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population, which we both know is where our only chance at victory lies, certainly was not to just blow all their shit up. We fucked up, we have created a mess over there. If you think the people of Iraq see us as "liberators", I want to see the flowers you were anticipating. If you think that the Iraqi people just love having us there, that we're the best thing to come along since schwarma, then you need to take off your Republican blinders.
I totally agree that it's going to be difficult for Iraq in the days to come. This is the fundamental and primary reason we should be doing every damn thing we can to help them! You better do more than HOPE it works, you better pray with all your might that it works, because if Iraq collapses to the radical Islamofascists, we are walking dead men. You can count your days, because the end will be near for us. This is not some chess game that will have no consequence if we lose, this is for all the marbles, and we simply can't afford to lose, and we can't afford to let the Iraqi's lose. I would LOVE for us to be able to "let them do it on their own" but we have far too much at stake, and I honestly don't trust people who were brutally oppressed for 30 years, to be able to withstand what lies ahead, with no outside assistance from us.
Again, this would have been a helpful little tidbit the realize before we went in. But knowing the enemy isn't all that important until we have a clusterfuck on our hands I guess.
YOU are the one with partisan blinders, YOU and your little butt buddy Maine, who have NEVER supported our action in Iraq!
Maine is not my butt buddy. The only butt buddy I've ever had was my ex-girlfriend, and she only let me in there once. December 7th, 1997, just passed the 9th anniversary, but I digress....
You are smart
Thank you.
I agree, we have fucked up royally on some things, and we have paid a dear price for it, we've missed some opportunities, we've mismanaged certain aspects, but that doesn't mean we would be better served to abandon it all now, and let the place go up in flames. That would be the most stupid thing we could do at this point. You are smart enough to know this, yet you persist in arguing as if you are certain it's the right thing to do!
I am not suggesting we simply pull up and leave 100% today. But you and your "stay the course" ilk have gotten a hell of a lot of people killed. You and your ilk are the reason for countless numbers of our guys coming home without hands and feet, arms, legs, eyes, the ability to walk..... We need new leadership on this and thankfully we are getting it to some degree. Why you want to just follow the bus off the cliff just to cling to your party is something I can't figure out.
Gaffer
Sanctimonious Prick
Knowing the enemy is critical in any war. Bush went into iraq knowing one enemy and not knowing the others. That was a big mistake. Those enemies are known now and adjustments have been made. But the real enemy is iran and the islamists. which I don't think Bush really knows enough about. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
I never suggested that this was merely a philosophical discussion. Again you are being intellectually dishonest. Essentially on this point you are saying that they do not think they're right and we're wrong, they just think that they're right and we're wrong. I agree with the second part. Why you need to take both sides of the issue is beyond me. I'm merely suggesting that an important part of the planning end of this thing is knowing the enemy. I don't know why on earth you would be opposed to that.
I'm all for knowing the enemy, which is why I suggested removing your head from you ass, and trying to understand them. For whatever reason, you are applying western American logic to them, assuming that if we have a different idea of things, which is opposed to their idea, that we are in the midst of a disagreement of two sides. This is not the case from the perspective of radical Islam, and never has been. They don't see it as their idea vs. our idea. They see it as their idea vs. moderate Muslims idea, and in that regard alone, do they see this as a disagreement. It doesn't matter to them, what our idea is, they don't acknowledge us as anything more than pigs and monkeys, and they want us all dead and gone. You're trying to foster a reasonable debate with people who don't believe you have the ability to debate, or the right to exist.
Who are you arguing with here? Who suggested any of this drivel? What you're describing about would have been helpful little tidbit to take into account though prior to invasion don't you think? But we were too busy thinking about what we would do with all the flowers thrown at our feet.
It's not drivel, it's the truth of the matter. We did take this into account, it's why we didn't topple Iran or Syria instead, the people of Iraq stood a much better chance of embracing democratic government, because the radicalism had not infiltrated them to the extent it had in other nations of the region. I really don't think we anticipated the level of radicalism waiting in the dark there. This means the problem is worse than we thought, something we couldn't have possibly known before we went in.
Maybe you and I have a different perspective here then. It seems to me that the best way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population, which we both know is where our only chance at victory lies, certainly was not to just blow all their shit up. We fucked up, we have created a mess over there. If you think the people of Iraq see us as "liberators", I want to see the flowers you were anticipating. If you think that the Iraqi people just love having us there, that we're the best thing to come along since schwarma, then you need to take off your Republican blinders.
We're not the ones blowing up their shit, that would be the Sunni's and radical Islamofascists. We are helping decent Iraqis form a new government and train a military capable of securing the nation. If we have blown up shit, it was shit that needed blowing up, because it was shit that belonged to the Sunni radicals and Islamofascists, who are blowing up shit themselves. I've never said that they were going to throw flowers at our feet, I don't know what idiot came up with that concept, but it's not rooted in any sort of realism. There are a lot of Iraqis who are glad we are there, glad we toppled Saddam, and don't want us to leave. Nearly 12 million of them participated in democratic elections under the threats of death, 70% of them, to be exact. When was the last time Americans, with no threat of death and non-stop encouragement to participate, turned out 70% of the vote?
Again, this would have been a helpful little tidbit the realize before we went in. But knowing the enemy isn't all that important until we have a clusterfuck on our hands I guess.
I noticed you completely ignored my point about the place already being fucked up, and just went right back to the argument that WE fucked it up. If you are one of those idiots who think Iraq was all blue skies and kites flying in the peaceful desert wind, you aren't as intelligent as I gave you credit for. It appears, you are the one with partisan blinders on, and unwilling to acknowledge, there was a fucked up mess there, long before we arrived on the scene.
I am not suggesting we simply pull up and leave 100% today. But you and your "stay the course" ilk have gotten a hell of a lot of people killed. You and your ilk are the reason for countless numbers of our guys coming home without hands and feet, arms, legs, eyes, the ability to walk..... We need new leadership on this and thankfully we are getting it to some degree. Why you want to just follow the bus off the cliff just to cling to your party is something I can't figure out.
Well what ARE you suggesting? Because it seems a little confusing to me. We can't very well jump in a time machine and go back to 2003, and redo it all! If it were possible to do this, I might be inclined to listen to your pontifications on what should have been done. We have what we have, and we have to find a way to move forward with what he have, we can't just abandon what we've fought this far to achieve, and neither can the Iraqi people.
I hate war as much as you do, I hate that American men and women are sacrificing their lives for Iraq and wish there was something that could prevent that, but the reality of war is, there isn't anything short of surrender or victory that will accomplish this. I can't support surrender, too many lives have been sacrificed to just give up. But even more importantly, what would surrender accomplish? Sure, no more American soldiers would die in Iraq, but at what ultimate cost? Do you think the radicals wouldn't be emboldened by that victory and not come after us? If so, again, you aren't as smart as I gave you credit for. The way I see it at this point, victory through surrender is not an option or a possibility, and is not worthy of consideration.
I am a reasonable person, and I am not, as you say, blinded by party loyalty. I don't give a flying fuck if Nancy Pelosi comes up with a solid plan for victory! For three years, I have literally BEGGED pinheads to articulate a plan, to tell us how we can win this war a better way, and I have heard nothing but bashing and trashing Bush, and refusal to even engage in reasonable dialogue on the matter. Within the past month, there has been more of an attempt from the left to actively engage in debate over this, than any other point of the war. Of course, it is done against the backdrop of failure, with the insistence that we have already failed and there is nothing we can do about it. I reject that premise, we haven't failed, but we certainly CAN fail, if we make the wrong choices of how to proceed from here.
I challenge you to take off your own partisan blinders, and realize this is no longer a debate on what we shoulda, coulda, woulda done, but rather, what we do now. I realize you didn't support the war, I realize you think there was a better way, but those things are in the past and can't be changed now. We are in Iraq, we are training Iraqi military, we are helping Iraq establish a democratic style government. What else can we do now? I don't want to use the adage "stay the course" but I can't think of any possible alternative than continuing to do what we've been doing, and I haven't heard any reasonable suggestions. You and the rest of the 'cut-n-run' crowd, are mired in defeat and negativism, and have offered nothing in the way of a future plan, only criticisms of the plan that was implemented. This is not going to solve the problems in Iraq, and it's not going to resolve this issue.
Here's an analogy to consider... We were on a journey to 'peace', when our leader decided we should take a shortcut through the forest, the majority of us agreed with this at the time, and we set out into the forest. Well, we became lost in the forest, although we have a compass (democracy) and we know that if we rely on our compass, we can eventually find our way to peace. The compass points us to a huge mountain we must cross, and some of us are not so sure anymore. Some of us are advocating we disregard the compass of democracy and do a complete 180, returning to the road we left before. Some of us have given up, and are sitting on the floor of the forest, bitching and complaining about being lost, and insisting we are all going to die here in the forest. Some of us are thinking we should split up and go in different directions, some of us just want to lay down and go to sleep. BUT, some of us believe with all our hearts and minds, if we continue to follow the compass of democracy, and face the mountain ahead, we will find peace on the other side. In any event, staying on the road we were on and not taking the shortcut, is no longer an option, it is in the past now, and nothing we can ever do will change that reality.
I'm all for knowing the enemy, which is why I suggested removing your head from you ass, and trying to understand them. For whatever reason, you are applying western American logic to them, assuming that if we have a different idea of things, which is opposed to their idea, that we are in the midst of a disagreement of two sides. This is not the case from the perspective of radical Islam, and never has been. They don't see it as their idea vs. our idea. They see it as their idea vs. moderate Muslims idea, and in that regard alone, do they see this as a disagreement. It doesn't matter to them, what our idea is, they don't acknowledge us as anything more than pigs and monkeys, and they want us all dead and gone. You're trying to foster a reasonable debate with people who don't believe you have the ability to debate, or the right to exist.
Who are you arguing with here? Who suggested any of this drivel? What you're describing about would have been helpful little tidbit to take into account though prior to invasion don't you think? But we were too busy thinking about what we would do with all the flowers thrown at our feet.
It's not drivel, it's the truth of the matter. We did take this into account, it's why we didn't topple Iran or Syria instead, the people of Iraq stood a much better chance of embracing democratic government, because the radicalism had not infiltrated them to the extent it had in other nations of the region. I really don't think we anticipated the level of radicalism waiting in the dark there. This means the problem is worse than we thought, something we couldn't have possibly known before we went in.
Maybe you and I have a different perspective here then. It seems to me that the best way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population, which we both know is where our only chance at victory lies, certainly was not to just blow all their shit up. We fucked up, we have created a mess over there. If you think the people of Iraq see us as "liberators", I want to see the flowers you were anticipating. If you think that the Iraqi people just love having us there, that we're the best thing to come along since schwarma, then you need to take off your Republican blinders.
We're not the ones blowing up their shit, that would be the Sunni's and radical Islamofascists. We are helping decent Iraqis form a new government and train a military capable of securing the nation. If we have blown up shit, it was shit that needed blowing up, because it was shit that belonged to the Sunni radicals and Islamofascists, who are blowing up shit themselves. I've never said that they were going to throw flowers at our feet, I don't know what idiot came up with that concept, but it's not rooted in any sort of realism. There are a lot of Iraqis who are glad we are there, glad we toppled Saddam, and don't want us to leave. Nearly 12 million of them participated in democratic elections under the threats of death, 70% of them, to be exact. When was the last time Americans, with no threat of death and non-stop encouragement to participate, turned out 70% of the vote?
Again, this would have been a helpful little tidbit the realize before we went in. But knowing the enemy isn't all that important until we have a clusterfuck on our hands I guess.
I noticed you completely ignored my point about the place already being fucked up, and just went right back to the argument that WE fucked it up. If you are one of those idiots who think Iraq was all blue skies and kites flying in the peaceful desert wind, you aren't as intelligent as I gave you credit for. It appears, you are the one with partisan blinders on, and unwilling to acknowledge, there was a fucked up mess there, long before we arrived on the scene.
I am not suggesting we simply pull up and leave 100% today. But you and your "stay the course" ilk have gotten a hell of a lot of people killed. You and your ilk are the reason for countless numbers of our guys coming home without hands and feet, arms, legs, eyes, the ability to walk..... We need new leadership on this and thankfully we are getting it to some degree. Why you want to just follow the bus off the cliff just to cling to your party is something I can't figure out.
Well what ARE you suggesting? Because it seems a little confusing to me. We can't very well jump in a time machine and go back to 2003, and redo it all! If it were possible to do this, I might be inclined to listen to your pontifications on what should have been done. We have what we have, and we have to find a way to move forward with what he have, we can't just abandon what we've fought this far to achieve, and neither can the Iraqi people.
I hate war as much as you do, I hate that American men and women are sacrificing their lives for Iraq and wish there was something that could prevent that, but the reality of war is, there isn't anything short of surrender or victory that will accomplish this. I can't support surrender, too many lives have been sacrificed to just give up. But even more importantly, what would surrender accomplish? Sure, no more American soldiers would die in Iraq, but at what ultimate cost? Do you think the radicals wouldn't be emboldened by that victory and not come after us? If so, again, you aren't as smart as I gave you credit for. The way I see it at this point, victory through surrender is not an option or a possibility, and is not worthy of consideration.
I am a reasonable person, and I am not, as you say, blinded by party loyalty. I don't give a flying fuck if Nancy Pelosi comes up with a solid plan for victory! For three years, I have literally BEGGED pinheads to articulate a plan, to tell us how we can win this war a better way, and I have heard nothing but bashing and trashing Bush, and refusal to even engage in reasonable dialogue on the matter. Within the past month, there has been more of an attempt from the left to actively engage in debate over this, than any other point of the war. Of course, it is done against the backdrop of failure, with the insistence that we have already failed and there is nothing we can do about it. I reject that premise, we haven't failed, but we certainly CAN fail, if we make the wrong choices of how to proceed from here.
I challenge you to take off your own partisan blinders, and realize this is no longer a debate on what we shoulda, coulda, woulda done, but rather, what we do now. I realize you didn't support the war, I realize you think there was a better way, but those things are in the past and can't be changed now. We are in Iraq, we are training Iraqi military, we are helping Iraq establish a democratic style government. What else can we do now? I don't want to use the adage "stay the course" but I can't think of any possible alternative than continuing to do what we've been doing, and I haven't heard any reasonable suggestions. You and the rest of the 'cut-n-run' crowd, are mired in defeat and negativism, and have offered nothing in the way of a future plan, only criticisms of the plan that was implemented. This is not going to solve the problems in Iraq, and it's not going to resolve this issue.
Here's an analogy to consider... We were on a journey to 'peace', when our leader decided we should take a shortcut through the forest, the majority of us agreed with this at the time, and we set out into the forest. Well, we became lost in the forest, although we have a compass (democracy) and we know that if we rely on our compass, we can eventually find our way to peace. The compass points us to a huge mountain we must cross, and some of us are not so sure anymore. Some of us are advocating we disregard the compass of democracy and do a complete 180, returning to the road we left before. Some of us have given up, and are sitting on the floor of the forest, bitching and complaining about being lost, and insisting we are all going to die here in the forest. Some of us are thinking we should split up and go in different directions, some of us just want to lay down and go to sleep. BUT, some of us believe with all our hearts and minds, if we continue to follow the compass of democracy, and face the mountain ahead, we will find peace on the other side. In any event, staying on the road we were on and not taking the shortcut, is no longer an option, it is in the past now, and nothing we can ever do will change that reality.
maineman
Banned
"I don't want to use the adage "stay the course" but I can't think of any possible alternative than continuing to do what we've been doing"
Dixie articulates the neocon position and clearly illustrates why his gang of idiots needs to cough up the car keys and go sit in the corner for a long time out.
Continung to do what one has been doing and somehow expecting a different outcome is a classic symptom of insanity.
Dixie articulates the neocon position and clearly illustrates why his gang of idiots needs to cough up the car keys and go sit in the corner for a long time out.
Continung to do what one has been doing and somehow expecting a different outcome is a classic symptom of insanity.
Beefy
Worst gambler ever
You're trying to foster a reasonable debate with people who don't believe you have the ability to debate, or the right to exist.
Um, no, I'm not. You're building straw men like they're going out of style. How in Dixieland does "knowing the enemy" equate to "having reasonable debate"? Where do you come up with this crap? Do you even care that there are more than 2 ways of handling a problem? You seem to be implying that we can do only one of 2 things: have a reasonable debate with the terrorists, or we can blow up Iraq. Those are the only two solutions eh? Lloyd Christmas. The whole premise of your post seems to rest on this one fallacy of your close minded opinion.
Besides blowing up Iraq and having tea with bin Laden, can you think of any other way to fight the terrorists? Be honest now.
Um, no, I'm not. You're building straw men like they're going out of style. How in Dixieland does "knowing the enemy" equate to "having reasonable debate"? Where do you come up with this crap? Do you even care that there are more than 2 ways of handling a problem? You seem to be implying that we can do only one of 2 things: have a reasonable debate with the terrorists, or we can blow up Iraq. Those are the only two solutions eh? Lloyd Christmas. The whole premise of your post seems to rest on this one fallacy of your close minded opinion.
Besides blowing up Iraq and having tea with bin Laden, can you think of any other way to fight the terrorists? Be honest now.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Besides blowing up Iraq and having tea with bin Laden, can you think of any other way to fight the terrorists? Be honest now.
Oh I don't know... How about, maybe we try planting the idea of democratic society, and see if maybe the Arabs can't make it work like we have, to foster peace and prosperity for the people who have a say in their governments?
Just a wild-assed idea I came up with here... no guarantee it would work... and it might actually take longer than a season of Survivor, so it might not be possible to do... Nevertheless, it IS an alternative to blowing them all up or having tea.... Whataya think?
Oh I don't know... How about, maybe we try planting the idea of democratic society, and see if maybe the Arabs can't make it work like we have, to foster peace and prosperity for the people who have a say in their governments?
Just a wild-assed idea I came up with here... no guarantee it would work... and it might actually take longer than a season of Survivor, so it might not be possible to do... Nevertheless, it IS an alternative to blowing them all up or having tea.... Whataya think?
Beefy
Worst gambler ever
Can you think of any other way to plant seeds of Democracy in the Middle East besides blowing up Iraq or having tea with bin Laden?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Can you think of any other way to plant seeds of Democracy in the Middle East besides blowing up Iraq or having tea with bin Laden?
Well, yeah, but it's kind of far-fetched.... I'm thinking that maybe we could allow Iraqis to vote in an election and elect a parliament and unity government of Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds, where they could adopt a constitution and establish their own version of democracy.
Like I say, it's a little far-fetched, it assumes that Arabs would actually want to be free from oppressive dictators and have liberty and prosperity, rather than being ruled by a tyrant and gassed to death by the thousands. It also relies on Arabs being intelligent enough to make valid decisions about who they want to govern them, and be able to figure out how to get to the polls and vote. They may just be too stupid and ignorant for this, though, so I really don't know.
You got any ideas?
Well, yeah, but it's kind of far-fetched.... I'm thinking that maybe we could allow Iraqis to vote in an election and elect a parliament and unity government of Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds, where they could adopt a constitution and establish their own version of democracy.
Like I say, it's a little far-fetched, it assumes that Arabs would actually want to be free from oppressive dictators and have liberty and prosperity, rather than being ruled by a tyrant and gassed to death by the thousands. It also relies on Arabs being intelligent enough to make valid decisions about who they want to govern them, and be able to figure out how to get to the polls and vote. They may just be too stupid and ignorant for this, though, so I really don't know.
You got any ideas?
Beefy
Worst gambler ever
Great idea. Lets see if it works. I'll have my finger in the air for the next 30 years. We'll see if the wind blows in the right direction.
maineman
Banned
we tried that...and there is a government in name only and a civil war raging. Methinks that cramming Jeffersonian democracy down their throats with an occupying army wasn't such a good deal.
Again...if France had come into the colonies in 1776 and kicked the British out and then kept their army in our colonies for several years later while they "helped" us write our constitution and "helped" us hold elections, all while being occupied by the French army, do you really think that we would have turned out the way we did absent that sort of forceful intervention?